That is not true. Some ultra-nationalists just say that because he is looking towards Brussels, while Ivanov is looking towards Pella.

why not look towards pella because pella is Macedonian its not Greek. just because you occupied it in 1913 does not mean its Greek. Macedonia is 4 the Macedonians. we dont stop you living in our county we dont stop you calling your self Macedonians every one has the right to feel Macedonian since alaxander the Great was king of most of the world. so we are all Got Macedonian in us.

MKD can be forward thinking with a perspective on the past as well. If it means changing our name and identity then I am not for looking at Brussells.

EU and NATO rules allow for one country to object based on narrow minded reasons.

Greek demands on MKD are rediculous and down right stupid.

MKD should look to sorting out their judicial system and corruption. If they do that they will be in better step already and be in better position for grants etc.

When EU and NATO wake up to themselves and see they are supporting a country that doesn't allow for self determination of another country then maybe we can move forward.

I would rather enter into EU and NATO as macedonians or nothing.

Yes the shiptari are a problem and they should be dealt with.

Think about it. How easy is it to walk forward if your head is facing backwards? Greek demands are stupid, but they hold much more power and a solution must be worked out because its better to be Northern Macedonia than divided between Albania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece.

Mak in the D,

It's a disgrace to hear from you that we should change our name. You realize that the absurd yunanistan demands will not stop after this name dispute they have with us. So why should we Macedonians lay down and die, while they take everything from us? This defeatist attitude is not needed by us Macedonians, and I say we tackle this problem head on, so the whole world can see what a joke this yunanistan organization is.

Mak in the D, have a good hard look at yourself, and if you really are a Macedonian, ask yourself what your family would be thinking about your defeatist attitude.

Pozdrav,
Your Macedonian friend

Macedonia will never change its name. Macedonia is 4 the Macedonians. hey how many vlahs are in Greece. the answer is 2.5 Million and why dont these people have rights. the true Macedonians are the Vlah and Slavic People. l

Greece is saying that the only problem is the name. If changing the name means better opportunity and prosperity, then why not just throw in "Northern". After all, the Republic of Macedonia is located north of Aegean Macedonia.

And if Greece does keep demanding bullshit, then maybe the world will realise they do not have good intentions.

When the name dispute is solved, Macedonia will be in NATO. Next comes the EU. Next comes prosperity. I, for one, think a slight change in the name is worth this.

Who the f**k is 'greece' to dictate the scenario? They can make any changes they want in regards to their racist country, but fortunately for us they cannot dictate our internal affairs. There is only one nation that has a problem with our identity, the others have no problem with us. So why should we change on a count of one racist joke of a nation? And the world does realise that the yunanistans do not have good intentions, otherwise they would have succeeded in wiping us Macedonians off the face of the earth.

Mak in the D, you do not realise that these NATO and EU racist organisations are not the be all and end all orgs that we Macedonians need to join. We've survived this long without these orgs, I am certain we can survive in the future without them. And we will retain the identity that was passed down to us from our forefathers - Macedonian.

Mak in the D, you are a disgrace to us Macedonians. Да те удри дамлата за мисленје како грк! И како шо зборуваш, можда грк си!

Pozdrav,
Your Macedonian friend

Грк? Не, не сум грк. Јас сум Македонец и само сакам Македонија да оди напред. Мислам дека и ти сакаш Македонија да оди напред, но ние мислиме поинаков. Ако Македонија се вика Северна Македонија, уште ќе сум Македонец и ти уште ќе си Македонец.

Многу сакам ти да си во право на крајот. Времето ќе покажи.

Yours truly, немилостот

Не! Ако го смениме името, свето ке не знае како северни македонци. Мојето потекло никогаш не беja северни македонци - само Македонци!

Our identity has already been defined by our forefathers, and our Macedonian nation is based on this! Thank god that you or anyone else doesn't have the right to change this. I hope you realise that no t even the Macedonian politicians have the power to change our identity. In the end it is the people's will on what they are to be known as. Thank god the Macedonian people choose to keep their identity, and not sell out just to belong to some racist european clubs. These clubs may even collapse in the not too distant future...

As i mentioned before, take a long hard look at yourself, if you claim to really be a Macedonian.

Pozdrav,
Your Macedonian friend

I'm not Macedonian, though I am related by marriage.

Reading the comments, on this and other threads, I find the ranting about who did what to whom, and where, between 100 and 1,000 years ago, completely daft. It would be funny if it were not so tragic.

I have long argued that Macedonia should change its name. That's not say that it does not have a right to keep the name. Indeed, I rather think it does, but you need a reality check here.

Your dispute is like a poker game. Your opponent has a flush, and you have a pair of 10s. You may think that your opponent has cheated, you may even be right, but there is no judge in this game and, crucially, no one is watching. As a result, there can be no end to this game and no victor, either.

Don't be deluded to think that "the world will see who is right". The world is NOT listening. That may come as a shock, but it frankly does not care a jot. It is too tied up in other matters, and even before when it wasn't, there was little interest. How many people actually know where Macedonia is on a map? Surprisingly few, I can assure you.

Some years ago, when in Macedonia, I argued with some young friends (and they were receptive to my views) that the country should hold a national competition to decide on a new name. I stand by that same view today. Just think of the names which may be put forward by young and old alike, with rounds of televoting to reduce the entries and reduce the nominations to a grand final!. Imagine if the country was to be called by a new name on 1 January 2010. . It would be the first "new" country in Europe in decades. The news would command the front pages. Foreign correspondents would hastily arrive to report on this historic development. Savvy investors would soon spot the potential of a country, outside the eurozone, with one of the best balance of payments (imports vs.exports) in the world (yes, it's true!). Your infrastructure would almost sag under the flow of FDI (foreign direct investment) and, with your fertile lands, other natural resources and excellent work ethic, your new country could in time become one of the wealthiest in Europe.

Then again (and, I think, sadly inevitably), you will carry on, and on, and on, about Alexander the Great and you will carry on, an on, an on, about how horrid Greece is behaving...yawn, yawn, yawn. The bottom line is that you will remain in relative poverty and isolation.

You value your national pride, which is understandable, but be pragmatic. Is national pride going to pay for the healthcare, education and housing of future generations? No, it won't.

If you reject this view, that's fine by me. At least I can still read the vitriolic comments, the profanities and the pointless shouting of the "caps lock" button, from a safe distance.

I will be comforted, however, in the knowledge that I did at least try to inject some sanity into the debate.

Very wise words, Jetstream.

Jetstream,

You compare our identity and heritage to a measley poker game. There is more at stake than a simple game. You may not be passionate about your background, but i can assure you that there is as many Macedonians outside of the country that would die to protect it, as there are inside the country. So outsiders (like yourself, and the 'greeks') can have their own opinion about this silly dispute, but the ones that have to live with it are us Macedonians. Our identity has been passed down by our fathers, and their identity passed down from their fathers and so on. Our grandfathers fought for our right to survive as Macedonians. You can even see this in the words of the Macedonian national anthem. We didn't wake up in the 1940's and just decide to be Macedonian (as the yunanistans woul dlike you to believe).

Imagine yourself being asked to compromise your own identity and heritage, because a richer, more influential (and racist) neighbour chooses for you not to exist as you wish? What would you do? Would you lay down and die? The Macedonians in the past have been extremely passive with regards to this silly quarrel with the athenians. And now that we have the strength to stand up for what we believe, and what is right, the yunanistans are having a cry about it. If you were really interested about this stupid dispute, you would have done some reading and found that the yunanistans had 100 years to exterminate us as Macedonians, but it didn't take. So we finally have a leg to stand on, and we will do everything in our power to make these athenians pay for their attrocities against us.

In the end, it doesn't matter if the world is listening or not. The world won't have to live with the consequences of us losing our identity, we will. We are known as the Republic Of Macedonia, and it seems as though the investments are coming in anyway, thanks to the work of the current government. So why would we change our name? They threaten us with instability if we do not join the racist organizations of EU and NATO, but we have survived as Macedonians without these orgs anyway. We will continue to survive as Macedonians long after these orgs go under.

I don't think being related to an historical figure is what this fight is about for us Macedonians. We simply have no other name, like it or not. If we were to cave in on the name, what would be the next thing these blood sucking yunanistans would be asking from us? Where does it end?

I do reject your view, as you don't have anything to lose, and you don't really care in the end. If you wish to inject some insanity, you may want to try it on the other side of the fence, and deal with a bunch of people whose very existence has been based on myth, and their false claim of purity and continuity.

PS - don't forget, we do not have an issue with our name. There is only one nation in the world who has an issue with us. The rest of the world is respectful to call us as we wish. So you tell me who you should be preaching to...

Pozdrav,
Your Macedonian friend

Jestream stay off the drugs man. There might be hope for you yet.


When you're back on medication come back and post.

Minus the nonsense I hope.


You don't have one ounce of an idea of what a macedoian is or what he or she stands for. Hence, you are the last person on earth to give advice.

Your strategic analysis in solving macedonias economic problem is irrational and total bs.

Jetstream I've got an idea (just between you and me). You can solve the economic ressession USA is in right now.

Just go and tell the United States that they should merge with Canada.

By televoting (just to save time) they can think of a new name. Maybe they'll call it Utopia!

They can be the first new country of 2010. Then the press will get wind of it and Utopiai will be on the front page of all the leading newspapers. Then some savvy foreign investors will come in.
Utopia's stucture will almost sag due to the new foreign investment but it will be better for it in the long run because Utopia will have its fist surplus budget in years.

Sadly there will be no more 4th of July, better yet there will be Jetstream Day!

There are so many "Anonymous" posters on here that it is impossible to know whose opinion is whose. Surely it's not beyond you people to come up with a screen name?

In any event, the two anonymous responses to my comment say more about them than about me.

For example:
"You don't have one ounce of an idea of what a macedoian is or what he or she stands for. Hence, you are the last person on earth to give advice."

In fact, I know many Macedonians and, as far as I am aware, I am as free to comment here as anyone else. Please advise me if this blog is only for people who agree with your viewpoint.

"racist organizations of EU and NATO"... followed by "these blood sucking yunanistans".

How odd to accuse organisations of being racist whilst, a few sentences later, you stoop to the the supposed levels of which you accuse them.
Quite bizarre.

"Jestream stay off the drugs man. There might be hope for you yet.

When you're back on medication come back and post.

Minus the nonsense I hope."

Ah, so what your saying is that if I post a viewpoint that differs from yours, I must be on drugs and and that I should post only when my viewpoint concurs with yours. That's a very mature attitude, I must say.

"Your strategic analysis in solving macedonias economic problem is irrational and total bs"

On what basis? Are you an expert in economics? You may disagree, but to call it "bs" shows an emotional, not rational, response.

"Jetstream I've got an idea (just between you and me). You can solve the economic ressession USA is in right now.

Just go and tell the United States that they should merge with Canada. "

Huh? What has the USA and Canada got to do with this? I don't see the connection. Am I suggesting Macedonia merging with another country? Nope, you've really lost me.

The views expressed above show, to my mind, that there is an excess of of emotion to common sense and civility in this debate.

Like it or not, I stand by what I posted previously.

Jetstream,

Of course this topic is emotional, it's our identity/history/heritage, and outsiders can have an opinion, but do not have a say on what is best for our nation, thank goodness. The fact that you know many Macedonians doesn't mean you can relate to our struggle. You refer to us by our rightful name - Macedonian - and I thank you for that, as we are nothing else, and have never claimed to be anything different. I refer to NATO and EU orgs as racists because of their policies and double standards when it comes to us Macedonians, and the hoops we have to jump through just to be accepted in Europe and the world. Are we sub-human? Are we a terrorist group? Do we not deserve the same rights that are afforded to every other race/group of people in europe? Are we not allowed to have our own dignity? I refer to 'greeks' as yunanistans in the same fashion they refer to us as 'slavs' or 'skopians'.

You are free to have your own opinion, but be prepared to take the criticism when you claim that we should be the ones compromising when you haven't heard our side of the story.

You sound like you are interested in this situation that we Macedonians have been placed. If you are, I urge you to research our side of the argument, and see the reasons behind athens' absurd approach towards anything Macedonian.

PS. If we didn't have a case to use Macedonia for our identity, it would have been taken from us a long time ago.


PSS. I always sign off with the same name.

Pozdrav,
Your Macedonian friend

Jetstream,

I'm all for a debate but not for one that is full of bs and fantacy. You want to be taken seriously then give credible arguments.

My example of the US and Canada is not meant to relate to Macedonia's problem. It relates to your deluded analysis of the Macedonian problem.

Really, being a new country by 2010 and investors are to come and save the day.....what a load of bs.

The crux of Macedonias "internal" problems are corruption, an
inadequatte legal system, political dialog etc. These are all internal problems that need to be solved and whether you call yourself Macedonia or Utopia it wouldn't attract new investment.

These problems can only be fixed internally.

Macedonia has already launched a campaign for investment in MKD with the lowest corporate tax rate in Europe.

Europe labelled us as South Serbs after WWI, we demanded our rights to be called macedonians expecially after WWII. The greeks had plenty of time to react and stop us from using that name. Since 1949 (approx) we were the Socialist Republic of Macedonia under Yugoslavia.

All of a sudden the Greeks from 1991 have a problem with us calling ourselves Macedonians. They'll tell you they are proud Macedonians but we can't be because we don't exist. Go figure.

Don't let them confuse you because it is the greeks that need their heads read, not us.

Under NATO, EU and UN we have a right to exist as Macedonians just like every other respective country in the world.

We will not change our name because there is no other Country, State or Province with the same name.


True Macedonian

Pozdrav,

"I urge you to research our side of the argument, and see the reasons behind athens' absurd approach towards anything Macedonian."

In my initial post, I stated that with regard to the name: "That's not say that it does not have a right to keep the name. Indeed, I rather think it does.."

So, I am quite happy to accept that you have a good case for keeping the name, indeed it may well be historically indisputable. The whole point of my post was to point out that this row has been going on since the early 1990s and I don't think it will be resolved any time soon. The Greek administration, by virtue of its membership of international organisations, and hence lobbying power, has the power of veto to ensure that the row over the name can continue for decades to come. Justice aside, the Greeks holds their position as strongly as the Macedonians. Believe me, this row will fester for ages.

There comes a time, I believe, when holding an intractable position, no matter how just, ceases to be of value if the aspirations contained therein are unachievable.


True Macedonian,

Of course Macedonia is quite rightly attracting foreign investment. Nevertheless, as I pointed out in my original post and in my response to Pozdrav above, the potential of a name change and a national rebranding could open the way for the country to be a tiger economy within Europe. In other words, were the row over the name to be settled (and my slightly tongue-in-cheek suggestion concerning the manner in which it could be settled was merely one option that may attract popular support), it should be seen as a positive step forward, not as a victory for the Athens government, nor as a defeat for Skopje.

It's not "bs". I dislike that term immensely, for it implies lying, which I am not; it's merely my own view as to how the future may be brighter.

Jetstream,

So your analysis is that we are deadlocked with this silly issue, and if we want to prosper or move forward, WE have to forget who we are? Am i reading you correctly? This brings up more questions than answers eg. question - what if another nation (not athens) tomorrow decides they don't like something else about us? Should we cave in again, just to move on? Where does it stop?

So what happens if it's not resolved? We don't get into NATO and EU? We're not part of them anyway, and life goes on for us, as Macedonians. There are recent reports saying that the Macedonian population are less interested in joining these orgs. Everyday they are seeing that joining these orgs will not solve our problems. I reckon Macedonia should concentrate on what True Macedonian posted - fighting corruption, reforming the legal system, foreign investments etc., and then, when we are prospering as a nation, WE should choose whether we want to join these orgs or not, and not beg them to let us in. Time is actually on Macedonia's side, no matter how much pressure is put on her to compromise.

If we told you that we weren't Macedonian and our nation is not Macedonia, we'd be lying to you, and ourselves.

PS. 'Pozdrav' means Greetings in Macedonian.

Голем поздрав до True Macedonian.

Greetings,
Your Macedonian friend

"So your analysis is that we are deadlocked with this silly issue..."

It certainly looks like it, and yes, it is silly.

"what if another nation (not athens) tomorrow decides they don't like something else about us? Should we cave in again, just to move on? Where does it stop?"

Agreeing to compromise on one occasion does not signal weakness, nor does it suggest any future trend. There is no logic to your assertion.

"So what happens if it's not resolved? We don't get into NATO and EU? We're not part of them anyway, and life goes on for us, as Macedonians. There are recent reports saying that the Macedonian population are less interested in joining these orgs."

On the EU, I would agree with the general sentiment, as it has recently transformed into a lumbering political elephant, which continually stifles enterprise. On Nato, however, I believe it would be useful to join. Nevertheless, I think that, while this issue remains unresolved, it will always be harder for Macedonia to achieve the prosperity it deserves. If the issue does remain unresolved, life will continue and there is no doubt that the economy will grow, albeit not as swiftly as if the name issue was resolved.

I really do think, though, that this obsession with history (using every opportunity to use the name of Alexander the Great), together with the constant sniping at your neighbour will, in time, prove to be politically unwise.

"Agreeing to compromise on one occasion does not signal weakness, nor does it suggest any future trend. There is no logic to your assertion."

You might want to mention that to the other team. If they were to end this madness, they would stand lose a great deal less than us Macedonians. You sound very much like an athenian sympathiser.

"On Nato, however, I believe it would be useful to join."

We've already showed that we are ready for NATO, and this issue was not part of the criteria to join. Hence the court case against athens for blocking our membership. If one member's insecurity can jeopardise this, then maybe it's not that valuable of an organisation.

You said it pal, Macedonia will continue to survive as Macedonia, should we join or not join these organisations. And that is our goal. Therein lies your answer to athens' problem. They wish to end our existence at any cost.

Obsession with history??? It is certainly not the Macedonians who have made this a historical debate. Ask yourself, would the athenians have a leg to stand on if they didn't concentrate on ancient history? The athenians rely on evidence from 2000 years ago, which no one can confirm or deny, to claim their stake. But when things are brought up from the past 180 years or so(from the time of the creation of the athenian nation), they brush it off as if it never happened...

Don't forget it is the Macedonian ministers asking for setting up of a joint committee for education and history (see Antonio Miloshoski). The athenians don't want to hear about it, because they will have to answer the tough questions.

It seems you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction my friend. You have much to research.


Greetings,
Your Macedonian friend

"You might want to mention that to the other team. If they were to end this madness, they would stand lose a great deal less than us Macedonians. You sound very much like an athenian sympathiser."

Oh, please. This one phrase sums up the entrenched attitudes that prolong this row. I suggest a compromise, and you then accuse me of sounding like an "athenian sympathiser". In point of fact, if you knew me, that would be an even more laughable comment. However, that aside, what you are saying in essence is that you will only accept total acceptance of your demands on the name issue, yet you must accept that the other side has adopted an equally entrenched position. It's an impasse.

This row will only go away when both parties show a willingness to compromise. However, as with all compromises, one side must blink first. I repeat, since both sides are entrenched, it won't happen anytime soon.

"It seems you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction my friend."

I'm not pointing a finger at anyone! Again, it seems you have a feeling that "if you're not with us, you must be against us". That is not the case. I am merely a pragmatist who knows that intransigence, name-calling and mutual suspicion can never, ever, lead to a satisfactory outcome...for either party.

cut the long story short,

Macedonia is 4 the Macedonians

Greece is 4 the Greeks simple.

MACEDONIA IS NOT 4 SALE.

So if it was to be a mutual compromise, what would athens have to offer? Do you forget that we have made an attempt to compromise? eg. flag, constitutional changes. What will they compromise??????

I agree, why don't both parties put all cards on the table? Let's really see what's behind athens' push to exterminate our identity. I already know the answer to this, but if i mention it again I'm afraid that you will claim that we Macedonians are too 'emotional'.

"what you are saying in essence is that you will only accept total acceptance of your demands on the name issue, yet you must accept that the other side has adopted an equally entrenched position."

So why doesn't the other side present it's position, and inform us as to why they have chosen this position, instead of hiding behind quotes from ancient historians which cannot exactly be a basis for this situation? How can we, or the world, take them seriously when they claim they are the 'most pure nation' and 'direct descendants of the ancient gods'??? It seems we are negotiating with lunatics!

I believe (as every other Macedonian does) that we are in this mess because the Macedonian argument wasn't allowed to be presented in equal fashion as the athenian argument. The Macedonians are making up for lost time, as athens had the jump on us by approx. 100 years, and also had the help of the superpowers in it's creation and functioning. We were left to die, but we survived anyway.

What you are saying is, 'never mind what happened in the past, forget your history and start anew'. That may be acceptable for you my friend, but it won't fly for us. Our identity is well established, not just in our nation, but also in the diaspora. Imagine trying to change that on the count of one nation's insecurities? Impossible! If you have some kind of connection with us Macedonians, as you claim, you would know that we are very passive and peaceful people who wish no harm to anyone (this may be our weakness). But if our way of life is threatened, then we have no choice but to defend ourselves.

No, i'm not labelling you as 'against us', i don't even know you and how you are connected to us. It just seems through your replies that you only view it from one side, as everything you have suggested will help to eradicate us. We wish to exist as we are, they wish to exterminate us. That is why the majority of us Macedonians believe we should pull out of all negotiations. What can they do if we pull out?? Not much, just block us from joining orgs that we are not apart of anyway. Life will go on for us.

Greeetings,
Your Macedonian friend.

If you sincerely believe that making a compromise on the name of Macedonia "..will help to eradicate us." and that the other side "wish to exterminate us", then there's no point in continuing this debate.

You clearly are deeply emotionally entrenched in your views which, of course, you are entitled to be.

I just don't think it is a constructive position to take for today's Macedonian citizens, or for future generations.

I think I'll leave it there. I've said my piece.

Yes, I, as all informed Macedonians, sincerely believe they want us to stop existing as we are - Macedonian. It can be clearly seen in the past 100 years.

I've clearly shown that I believe the Macedonian government have made an attempt to start a form of dialogue to break the deadlock, and all you can say is we are 'too emotional'? Are you being fair in your analysis of this issue? Show me some form of evidence of the other side doing the same. They say it will need to be a compromise, but they haven't given any direction themselves. It is clear that they don't want us to be known by the only name that we have, but haven't delved into why that is. The lie about territorial aspiration towards their nation as the sole reason is dubious.

They ask us to change our name. We ask for what reason. They can't provide a valid answer. It seems Macedonia will live on to fight these myths another day.

Greetings,
Your Macedonian friend