Well as we all know, that is the Greek way of solving their problems: When you have a problem, just denie it and hope that one day it will RELLY DESAPIER! The first stage of solving ANY problems is to admit that there IS a problem. Greece is in a very big delusion if they think that Macedonia and the Macedonians will just disapear! Their NOSES are groing biger and biger with every new lie. And the world is watching it.

Minority? No problem. Just tell us where they live. Give us names of villages and cities in Greece and how many ethnic "Macedonians" live in each one.

And as we all know, the Turkish (!) way of solving problems is to ask for more and more. While the interim agreement was mentioning that we will both agree on a name (that you will propose of course), now they try to make Macedonia as a de facto name and they start pushing of a Macedonia minority (how we suppose to accept the existence of a minority with a name that we consider as Greek?)

And the funniest thing is that they are surprised with our denial! “That racist Greeks do not accept the existence of our people”.

Name your people first, then we will talk about if, where and how many they are.

@gialtouridis

How can we know if you don't know. What you need to do is call for a census. You may want to google that word since you haven't had one in ages.

@michelos.gr

A minority that YOU consider Greek but they don't consider themselves Greek. There's a difference. You need to give the people the freedom to self-determine rather than you determining what and who they are. That is what a democratic country does. Name the people? What kind of a response is that? Have a census!

Census, huh? Is that what you did and you found 400 Greeks in your country? Are you sure you know what a census is? Wouldn't you rather come down and count them yourself? I mean, you don't trust us as it is. So why don't you send some guys down here and start counting. Remember, we want village and city names and how many ethnic "Macedonians" in each one. Let's see if you use the same criteria as with the census you did in FYROM, you know, when you counted 400 Greeks.

In the Republic of Macedonia there was an internationally monitored census...thus the 400 Greeks...

Suppose that an internationally monitored census came to Greece...you guys would fight it tooth and nail because it would reveal your biggest secret...a sizable minority in your borders whose mother tongue is Macedonian and not Greek!

As the Ovchar would say...EDEN DEN E SEGA!

Perhaps after the census there be a referendum on making Macedonian one of the official languages in that province...it would go a long way to heal the wounds of the past...

You know it...we know it...now the world knows it...

We will pay for you to conduct that census. Bring international monitors with you. All we want to know is where are the ethnic "Macedonians" in Greece. All we ask for is names of villages and cities and respective population numbers. Why are you avoiding me? Why do you continue to generalize about censuses and language. Let's establish a minority first. Then we can move on to language issues.

names...you want names!! ...Kotori, Visheni, Lerin, Solun, Kostur, Buf, Lazeni, Nevoljani....and so on and so on....Hundreds of places, thousands of families re-named and displaced!! Generations of tradition, history and culture lost. The world will one day confront the goat's arse of Europe...

@ Anonymous 20:29

We consider the name as Greek. A minority is a minority. But how expect us to call it Macedonian when we consider Macedonia as part of the Greek history and culture? So, next time, read my posts more carefully since I never asked you to name the people.

However, what you say has no sense. You base your judgment according to Slavs who left the country after the civil war. You imagine about thousands of people that are living in captive, hunted by the police because of their Macedonian origin!
When you want to talk about minorities you have to put some numbers on the table and to present some facts about them.

There is a Slavophone minority in Macedonia (the historical Greek province); they speak their own Slavic or Greco-Slavic dialects. But... this fact is none of Skopje's business!
Skopje, these Greek citizens have nothing to do with you, please keep out of Greek internal affairs.

These people are not Greek...
They should have a right to self identification and preservation of their mother tongue...which is the same language that those in the Republic of Macedonia speak...in fact a great number of the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia hail from Aegean Macedonia...and a great number of them also stayed as well...but endured the fascist policies of the Greek state which smothered their identity...and their voice...

Well now is the time to look under the carpet and show the world what is hidden in your so called democracy...

Good luck with the census and we look forward to the referendum shortly there after...

We will simply not dissappear...

It’s very easy to create a number, assuming that this number belongs to you. You pick just a number or you simply say “thousands”. Yet, nobody counted thousands. And their language is the same that you speak? So, you assume that it’s different than Bulgarian? Or not? In fact, how sure are you that you will be able to understand these people, if you ever visit them?

Even… even if you are right, then these people have long forgotten your language and they speak a Greek – Slavic mixture which will be impossible for you to understand.

It’s always amusing to hear about the thousands of your people that are living to me! Unfortunately for you, I haven’t seen any of them. Maybe because they are afraid of me… or maybe because they are visible only under your (kind of) vision.

* They are Greek. 'Greek' is an oecumenical term based on education.
* I know that many now live in FYR Makedonija. I respect it. They can state what they like, but Skopje must NOT get involved.
* The Slavic and Greco-Slavic dialects of these Greek Slavomacedonians is as DIFFERENT from the official language of Skopje, as the language of Skopje is different from the language of Sofia. Your grandparents know that!
* Greek Slavomacedonian dialcets, Skopjan Slav Macedonian, Bulgarian and Serbian are... different languages.

Why are you avoiding me? You named some villages and cities in your own dialect but you refuse to give me numbers. Why do you generalize with thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands? Give us numbers for each location. You are again losing credibility. Not that you had much in the first place. You can sit there and type drama on your keyboard. But it's fiction. You can't back it up. It may sound good to you, but any unbiased intelligent reader can see that you're making it all up. How can we be more fair? Let's count them.

Were still here...

We walk among you...in Solun, in Lerin, in Voden, in Kostur etc...

Yes we are still here...

Thank you for visiting our lovely Macedonia in Thessaloniki, Florina, etc, your tourist trade is always welcome and our services are world class. And we wish you a safe and pleasant return back to your wonderful FYR Makedonija...

Your lease is almost up...2013

You have been horrible tenants...

Tidy up on the way out please...

You are making the number an issue. You are claiming anywhere from 500,000 to 2 million ethnic Macedonians living in Greece. So don't try to minimize the emphasis that you yourselves are putting on the alleged minority and its size. All I'm asking for is to help us locate these people. If you are so sure they exist, no matter how big or small, let's find them. Until then, THERE IS NO MINORITY. How can we recognize an entity which can not be identified?

Dream greeks... Just dream...When you wake up, it will be to late, you will be very deep in your own sh***.
WHAT IS NOT GOING TO KILL ME, IS GOING TO MAKE ME EVEN STRONGER!!!!!!!

I dont understand. Do you always use the same arguments? You use the same laguage when (Greek?) people tell you that you do not exist, that there are no minorities in Greece, that you are an invention.
I say the opposite and also try to explain a few things! But you respond with the same language! :-)
No problem, thank for your reply, I find it all very interesting.

yea yea, we know all about your "theory" about us being an "invention" and that before 1946 we vere "something else", and that Tito "invented us", bla bla bla.....
Because you allways "question" the riability of everything we say, I will advise you to go on this page

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/2236/45/

and see it your self!

Also I can provide you with this timeline of Macedonia and the Macedonians, anm try to teach you some REALLITY, because I can see that your brain is FULL with your politicians bullshit!!! All of you are just repeating same and same 3 centances all the time!

-[1912-13] Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria join forces, and with the help of 100,000 Macedonians defeat the Turkish army in Macedonia. Macedonia is denied independence and the Treaty of Bucharest (August 1913) partitions the country between Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria. Greece takes the biggest, southern half of Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia) and renames it to "Northern Greece”. The Greek army burns to the ground the town Kukush, the birthplace of the Macedonian leader Georgi (Goce) Delcev. Bulgaria annexed the Pirin region and abolished the Macedonian name, and Serbia took over the Vardar region and renamed it to "Southern Serbia".

- [1914-1918] In 1914, World War I erupts. Bulgaria sides with the Central powers and by 1915 occupies the Serbian held part of Macedonia (Vardar). The defeat of the Central powers and the end of World War I in 1918 saw the partition of 1913 reconfirmed and Macedonia is left divided.

-[1919] At the Paris Peace conference the demands of the Macedonians for independent and united Macedonia are ignored. The Treaty of Versailles sanctions the partition of Macedonia. Vardar Macedonia is re-incorporated with the rest of Serbia and into the new Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, later renamed Yugoslavia.

-[1924] The May Manifesto, resolution of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia on the right of the Macedonian people to self-determination. Greece prints out the primer "Abecedar" in the Macedonian language for the needs of the Macedonian children in Aegean Macedonia but it withdrawn before it reaches the schools.
-[1925] VMRO (United) is founded in Vienna under the leadership of Dimitar Vlahov. Its main objective is to free Macedonia within its geographical and economical borders and create an independent political unit that will become an equal member for future Balkan Federation.

-[1935] The Macedonian National Movement MANAPO is established in the Vardar part of Macedonia.

-[1936] The Macedonian Literary Society is founded in Sofia by outstanding Macedonian writers.

-[1940] The Fifth Nationwide Conference of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia passes a resolution on the equality and self-determination of the Macedonian people.

-[1941] World War II erupts and Bulgaria as fascist ally of Hitler’s Germany occupies almost all of Macedonia (both Vardar and Aegean) and collaborates with the Nazis for the departure of the Jews of Salonica to concentration camps. On October 11, 1941, the Macedonians launch a war for liberation of Macedonia from the Bulgarian occupation.

-[1943] The anti-fascist sentiment lends support for the growing communist movement and the Communist Party of Macedonia is established. The first unit of the Army of Macedonia is founded and government bodies (national liberation councils) are formed over the whole territory of Macedonia. The Headquarters of the National Liberation Army (NOV) publishes a manifesto of the goals of the war for liberation.

-[1944] On August 2, 1944, 2282 years after the Battle of Chaeronea and on the 41st anniversary of the Ilinden uprising, the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the National Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) proclaims a Macedonian state. Representatives from all parts of Macedonia gather for the occasion and decide on the constitution of a modern Macedonian state as member of the new Yugoslav federation. The ASNOM presidium is formed with Metodia Andonov Chento as its first President.
-[1945] The first government of the People's Republic of Macedonia is founded (April 16) with Lazar Kolisevski as its President.

-[1946] The first constitution of the People's Republic of Macedonia is adopted. Start of university education in Macedonian (Faculty of Philosophy).

-[1946] Bulgaria, under the leadership of Geogi Dimitrov officially recognizes the existence of the Macedonian nation and the right of the Pirin part of Macedonia to be attached to the People’s Republic of Macedonia. The majority of the population in the Pirin part of Macedonia declares itself as Macedonian in a free census.

-[1946-1949] In the Greek Civil War (1946-1949) that followed World War II, the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia fight on the side of the Greek Communist Party (KKE) as it promised them their rights after the war. About half of the 35,000 soldiers of DAG are Macedonians. On the liberated territory in Aegean Macedonia 87 Macedonian schools are opened, newspapers in Macedonian are published, and cultural and artistic associations created. But after few years of KKE's success, the communists lose the war, and the Macedonians are once again stripped of their human rights. 28,000 Aegean Macedonian children, known as 'child refugees', are separated from their families and settled in eastern Europe and Soviet Union in an attempt to save them from the terror that followed. Thousands of Macedonians lost their lives and great numbers of the Macedonian villages are burned to the ground.

-[1956] In the Bulgarian census of 1956, the majority of the population of Pirin Macedonia again declares itself as Macedonian. Since then Bulgaria under nationalist Todor Zhivkov reverts its decision of recognizing the Macedonian nation and once again forbids free expression of Macedonian nationality and language.

-[1958] The Ohrid Archbishopric, abolished in 1767 by the Ottoman Turks under Greek pressure, is restored.

-[1967] The Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences is founded. The autocephaly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church is proclaimed.

-[1986] The Greek paper "Elefteros Tipos" announces that Prime-Minister Papandreu in the talks with Yugoslav presidency member Stane Dolanc has agreed to recognize the Macedonian language as one of the official languages in Yugoslavia.

-[1988] Greek Prime-Minister Papandreu and the Foreign Affairs' Karolos Papulias, agree to recognize the Macedonian language in Greece. The banker’s affair "Koskotas" brings down the PASOK government, and the documents were never signed.

-[1989] The United Macedonian Organization - Ilinden (OMO Ilinden) is founded in Pirin Macedonia, demanding cultural and national autonomy for the Macedonians in the Pirin part of Macedonia.

-[1991] Federal Yugoslavia disintegrates as Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia declare independence. On a referendum on September 8 the Macedonians proclaim independence. Kiro Gligorov is elected first president of independent Macedonia. New constitution is adopted, declaring the Republic of Macedonia a sovereign, independent, civil, and democratic state, and recognizing complete equality of the Macedonians and the ethnic minorities in the country.
-[1993] Macedonia is admitted to the United Nations.

-[1994] Afraid that Macedonia might put forward a historical, cultural, and linguistic, claim over Aegean Macedonia, Greece insists that the there is no Macedonian nation and that the Macedonians have no right to use the name "Macedonia". Greece imposes a trade embargo on Macedonia because of the Macedonian refusal to rename the country, nation, and language, and change the Constitution Article 47 that specifies "the Republic of Macedonia cares for the statue and rights of those persons belonging to the Macedonian people in neighboring countries”. At the same time, Greece withdrew from the Greek - Macedonian talks, monitored by the UN as a mediator, and blocked any acceptance of Macedonia in the international institutions by using its power to veto new members.

-[1995] Macedonia becomes a member of the Council of Europe. The Human Rights Watch condemns Greece for the oppression of its large ethnic Macedonian minority, which Greece denies it exists. Both Amnesty International and the European Parliament also urge Greece to recognize the existence of the Macedonian language and stop the oppression of the ethnic Macedonians on the Macedonian territory it appropriated in 1913.

* Unbelievable! AGAIN you did not read what I said! You simply ASSUMED!
Do you ever read what people say? Why do you think everybody is against you?
* I am one of those people who knows you exist. Some things you present are correct, other things are inventions. To have a dialogue means means that we discuss things and correct eachother.

Alfavitas I am pretty shore that YOU are the one who dont understand! Im not asuming any thing, you do. And the only thing I'm truing to do is to discuss with you and to correct you.
I (we) all know that the ONLY one who is against us is the Greek "Democracy", more specific THE OFFICIAL political leaders of the country (with a help from their friendly Cyprus). With the timeline of Macedonia I just wanted to present to you some facts (that I'm 100% shore you dont know about)about the doublefaced politics that we (the Macedonian ethnicum) are recieving from Greece and Bulgaria over the last century. If you read it carefully, I'm shore you get a conclusion that only with the fact that Greece and Bulgaria "changed their mind" about the Macedonian minority, language and culture,not once but quite a few times, is a prove that their "politics of buliing" the Macedonians is just a untasty joke and fabrication. Can you understand what i mean? Maybe the Greek politicians really wish Macedonia and the Macedonians to desapear, realising in what kind of knot they tide them selves, but I will tell you one thing: WE ARE NOT DESAPEARING, WE DIDN'T, AND WE WILL NOT!!!!
And for the end my FRIEND Alfavitas you can also read this:

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/2255/2/


The word FRIEND I used is honest word, coming from a Aegean Macedonian mouth. All we REALLY want is to be able to be friends, not enemies, to RESPECT eachother as EQUAL people born and living in Greece! We are not after any theritories or any of that bullshit that the Greek politicians are saying (scaring you). It is about a time for the Greek people to realise HOW MUCH THEIR DENYING POLITICS BRAINWASH THEM!

Alfavitas is right! You assumed. AlfaVitas never said about the Tito story. It’s your assumption. In general, you ignore his words! You came here to say something and you say it!

So, no conversation can be made out of it!

Just try to read what he is saying! Then look your responses!

Jesus guys! We are not Karamanlis and Dora!

I challenge every Skopjian propagandist to prove to the world with credible evidence if there was a non-Greek Macedonian consciousness at any time before 1878. For over 2,000 years, between 168 B.C, when ancient Macedonia fell to Rome, up until 1878, there has not been even one non-Greek documented reference claiming a Macedonian identity. I will not engage in dialogue as to the origin of the ancient Macedonians before 168 B.C. since any serious historian will verify that they were undeniably Greek. Even Kiro Gligorov dismissed any Slavic claims to ancient Macedonia, shortly before the assassination attempt on his life. Also, independent verifications only. No Skopjian propagandist websites or references. After the rejection of the San Stefano Treaty of 1878 by the Great Powers and its subsequent successor of that same year, the Treaty of Berlin, a so-called Macedonian revolution was started by Bulgarians headed by Gotse Delchev and pseudo-Macedonian but Bulgarian in origin bands such as the IMRO (guess what the 'M' stands for). They tried to take the Macedonian region which was promised to them by the Ottoman-Russian agreement in San Stefano, as part of a Greater Bulgaria, but denied to them in Berlin. Others such as the Serb Stojan Novakovic also promoted Macedonism through funding false propaganda. The first Balkan War forced the Ottomans out of the Macedonian region. Then these self-proclaimed Macedonian bands eventually broke away from Bulgaria, and through this identity theft and deception, propagated by generations of deliberate misinformation and history usurpation in Skopje's educational institutions, evolved into this false perception of a Macedonian identity which is FYROM. There was, at the time of the Balkan Wars, an authentic Macedonian Struggle in Greece as parts of southern Macedonia were eventually liberated from the Ottomans by the Greeks. Northern Macedonia is currently occupied by FYROM. So, I challenge you Skopje. Some of the territory which you occupy is considered Macedonia but can you prove to the world that you are Macedonians? YOU CAN NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT!

Greek politician really scare me because they are corrupt, ignorant and do not care about Greek nature.
I could give you better reasons why you exist.
* As for the Slavophone minority in Greece... did you see Mancevski's film 'Shadows'? One of the 'ghosts' is an old lady from Greek Macedonia. In the film, she speaks in a local Slavic dialect of Greece that ONLY a specialist can understand... Skopje people do not understand it. This is because Slavophone Macedonians of Greek Macedonia have their own customs, history, dialects - Skopje is a foreign land, just like Sofia and Belgrade; Greece should study their distinctive traditions.
You in FYR Makedonija have your own language and culture, and Bulgaria has its own.
* You say you are from Greek Macedonia, then try to love your Greek motherland, speak like someone who cares for its future, show some understanding for the tragedy (and stupidity) of its people. You have duties towards your country (Greece), and your country has obligations towards all its citizens (you).

Michaelos and Alfavitas, calm down! I didn't say that Alfavitas said about Tito, or that this one said about this or that one about that. I'm saying that this kind of conversations are allways same from the Greeks. Im saying that the OFFICIAL Greek "tactics" are allways few same centances, denying our existence, denying our language, denying our culture, making us "Tito's invention".... (I mean, you can see that in some of the Greeks writing on this forum, like gialtouridis for example).
The things that I wrote are not only for Alfavitas or Michaelos, they are for all of you. And to tell you the truth, I'm HAPPY if Alfavitas really means the things that he writes, about the minorities and their rights. The only thing bothering me is:
Why, all of you who believe that the monorities in Greece are scared of their human rights, dont go to the greek forums and say it there? Why dont you say to your Greek friends that you are Greek but you dont like what is happening with the othet nationalities in Greece? Why dont you say that in public when you seat in some coffe bar with your friends? Why dont you say it at home to your parents? Or teach your jounger sister or brother that the things are not wright?
Do you understand now what I want to say? I want to say that A LOT of people in Greece (Greek people) are avare of the hidden reallity about the Greek minorities, but NO ONE is doing nothing about it. I guess that everyone of you would do something if YOU were in their situation.
And Alfavitas, I CONSIDER GREECE AS MY MOTHERLAND, I write this because I CARE ABOUT ITS FUTURE, I show respect for ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN MY SITYATION, I fulfil ALL MY DUTIES TORWARDS MY COUNTRY, and MY COUNTRY DIDN'T EVER FULFIL ITS OBLIGATIONS BACK! We always say that Greece is our country. We want to worn Greece that with this kind of denial and ignoring torwards its own citizens, its future is NOT BRIGHT. We have always been loyal to Greece, we never started ANY problems, demonstrations,riots.... And what we get for that? NOTHING, being treated like third class citizens, like noone and nothing. Plus on that , I can see that most of you are questioning and doubting anything we say. We dont do that to you! If you say that you are Greek, or you FEEL like Greek, OK. That is your problem, not mine. Some of you are most probably born in Australia, or South Africa, or America, and maybe never even seen Greece, but you FEEL like GREEKS. Is same with us. WE FEEL LIKE MACEDONIANS, for as long as anyone can remember we caled eachother MACEDONIANS, and you are not the one to change that. You can call me "skopjanian" or "slavophone" for as long as you want, but I will allways BE Macedonian.
Same with our language. It is a MACEDONIAN DIALECT. The people from Greece cant understand the people from Cyprus, but all of them are saying that they are speaking GREEK. In Republic of Macedonia, the people from Skopje have problems understanding the people from Strumica, or Kriva Palanka, Or Kumanovo, but they all speak Macedonian language.
That's why, I think is about a time for you to stop questioning this things. It's to late now to change our feelings. You will allways feel as you feel, we will allways feel as we feel. Instead, if you are really concerned abouth the future of OUR country, start sypporting us. We should be on the same side.

gialtouridis why should I prove to you anything dating per 1878. I only have to look back at my family tree who all regard themselves as macedonians and I can trace back before that date. So who are you to tell me I am wrong, misinformed or invented.

We have and always will call ourselves macedonians. You greeks have called us slavs, skopjans, varkarski, fyroms and fuck knows what.

But it's you that sounds ridiculous not me. I only have to look outside racist greece to know that. Now fuck any census inside greece. I ask you how many Macedonians born/brought up in Aegean Macedonia living in the diaspora consider themselves macedonians and more importantly NON GREEK.

I don't know the answer to that but I dare say the findings to that census would be embarassing to you to say the least.

It would never reconcile to any statistics racist greece can ever come up with.

Anonymous The Great