So, a Russian document of 16th century says that present day Macedonians (present day = 16th century) are tied to Alexander the Great.

Sure. Nobody denies that. Now why are you happy about this document?

According to the Greek logic, people living in FYROM that claim to be Macedonians are NOT connected to the ancient Macedonians!

This documents proves nothing in favor of your side.
It’s not Greek logic we are talking about but a document which says something that everybody agrees with : That on 16th century, Macedonia had Macedonians!

MACEDONIAN MACEDONIAN MACEDONIAN
FOREVER, AS FOR YOU GOD KNOWS WHAT YOUARE OR WHERE YOU COME FROM

Regardless of what the athenian falsifiers come up with, it will always be Alexander of Macedon, not Alexander of athens

I think people forget that there is no such thing as 'ancient greece'. greece was created in 1821, Macedonia dates back far before Christ. All smart people know that Alexander was Macedonian, it's those goddamn brainwashed greeks that can't understand that he was. Way to try and steal other peoples history.

Macedonia for the Macedonians!

Dear Macedonian Worf, go out and tell somebody that there is no ancient Greece. Just do it!

Nobody denies that Alexander the Great was Macedonian. Of course he was. And Periklis was Athenian. And Leonidas was Spartan. But, unfortunately for you, all of them were having something in common. Guess what...

If somebody speaks of a Macedonian he means Macedonian but if somebody speaks of Spartan then what he means? Spartan of course! Right?

So, I assume that Sparta should became autonomous (!) and claim that Leonidas and his 300 hundred were not Greeks but Spartans!

ALEXANDER IS A MACEDONIAN
MACEDONIANS ARE GREEKS

If the Spartans don't like the Athenian policies then they can be autonomous. That's their problem.

Greeks, both athenians, spartans and others were fused in 1829. They excepted a modern greek existance.

Greece occupied macedonia 100 years later by war, populations swaps and forced assimilation. Hardly a natural fusion.

Once again and don't forget the russians recognize us. They don't buy into the greek propaganda.

If the Russians said Alexander was Spartan then somewhere along the line a reference to greek or hellenic would be mentioned.

From what I gather from this document there is no mention of greek or hellenic connection.


True Macedonian

I mostly talk about the past. My example is simple. Since Leonidas was Spartan, who would you call him today? Spartan or Greek? Spartan is correct. I hope you will also say that Greek is correct. So, if I keep calling and refer him as Spartan, will this change that he was Greek?

The same applies to that document which, of course, I haven’t read. I only know what MINA article says, and what it says is clear : He was Macedonian. Great! I said in the past that I agree with that!

I don’t forget that Russia recognized you as Macedonia but also don’t forget that this document (of 16th century) has nothing to do with modern Russia! Remember, we are talking about that document.

By the way, did you read it (or any translation of it)?

Important to understand that this document highlights a Macedonian Only concept.

I have not read the document. I make the macedonian only assumption because they have alerted us on this forum.

Think about it. If Russian documents spoke of Alexander as being greek all over their history books, like the spartans and athenians were then why would they altert us on this forum?


True Macedonian

Since you have not read the document (and I did not) then it’s impossible to say anything about it’s content. Right?
MINA’s headline said that Russians confirmed that Alexander was Macedonian. This proves nothing because everybody agrees that he was! But it’s presented in such way as “tool” to convince people. Like saying, Alexander was Macedonian, we are Macedonians so Greeks are wrong, while Greeks never said that Alexander was not Macedonian!

What we discuss here ( the 2 – 2 people here that are willing to discuss) is the weight of this document, related to our bilateral issue.

I agree with my Macedonian friend (!) about learning the modern Greek history. It’s a fact that we study more of the Ancient and Byzantine times and much less the times after independence.
However, in order to “solve” our bilateral issue, we have to start from somewhere. Why not from Ancient times?

In a previous post you asked me to bring some evidence about Ancient Macedonian’s language. I brought a
coin!

The word «ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ» you read means “Alexander’s” (Owned by Alexander) and on the other side of the coin is Alexander the Great. I just want you to know that my father’s name is Alexander and in Greek is written exactly the same. Not even a single change! Now, how can you convince me that this coin is more related to your language than to ours?

And one more thing: The fact that we use English today doesn’t mean that in the past was easy to learn different languages. At Ancient times there was no Internet, not TV, not American movies”, so for the ordinary people there was no need to know Greek! But they knew! They had coins with Greek words!

Rubbish! All I hear greeks saying is Alexander is Greek, Alexander is Hellenic, Alexander is anything but Macedonian.

Here is a document to prove you wrong.

The Macedonian freind is right about modern greeks and how they change their positions.

I have been around long enough to know that prior to 1990 the thought process (by a greek) was either you were greek, bulgarian or serbian or at best yugoslavian. Not just Macedonian.

This is evidence that Greece is continually changing its position. As soon as greece realized it cannot erradicate the macedonian name, that is when the heavy propaganda started "We are the real Macedonians and We are Greek"

Your greek coin from the past bears as much sense as today's euro being used in many countries. Coins with greek inscriptions could be found in Thrace, Rome, Asia Minor and Egypt.
Why no propaganda about those countries being true greeks decendent from the ancient times?????


True Macedonian

First of all: Thank you for admitting that this is a Greek coin.

Obviously it confuses you a lot! It’s a coin with Alexander’s figure and his name in Greek. So the people that were using this coin obviously were able to understand what it was saying. (Right?). There are 2 possible scenarios:

1) The Macedonians produced these coins with the figure (and the name) of their King.
2) The Athenians produced these coins with the figure (and the name) of the invader’s king! The Macedonians had not coins of their own so they decided to use the Athenian coins with Alexander’s name!

I assume that you believe the 2nd scenario..

Maybe we make some coins with Obama’s face on them. But I am sure you will also find plenty American coins around. Made by Americans.

Can you show as any Macedonian coins in a Macedonian language other than Greek?

Michelos I think in the past the bartering system was used prodemonantly in place of currency and self suffiency.

So again you keep dodging the issue. With greek coins found in rome, thrace and egypt, go and tell them they are decendents from ancient greeks and come back and tell me how you go.

@ anonymous 23:50. you are either nothing but a greek migrant or you have sold out your true non greek macedonian ancestors.

We are macedonians and always will be. So fucken suffer.


True Macedonian

You like to miss the point. We are not talking about some Greek coins but we talk about Greek coins with Alexander’s head and name in Greek!

I am sure there are not Greek coins with Julius Ceasar… :-)

Hello Mikelos (the guy with the weird family background).

Why start with ancient history as the starting point for you argument against us, when your argument is based on assumptions of ancient history, and not cold hard facts??? Why not start with the period when the athenian nation was first formed (around 1830's)??? We are not sure about what language the ancient Macedonians spoke, so why rely on assumptions??? The reason for this is that it suits your racist agenda to use these arguments. Your only connection with Macedonia is Alexander the Great, and even that is flaky and can be disproven by those who have even a bit of knowledge about the subject! I ask you again, how can people (christian turkish settlers) who were never from Macedonia, be related to ancient Macedonians? Personally, i think it's absurd that you athenians try to prove that you are in any way related to the ancient people, because the ancient people are long gone, and it is impossible to prove you or I are related to them. Why not use information that we have an understanding about - modern history!

Modern history tells us that Macedonian land was, for the first time ever, incorporated into the athenian nation in the year 1913, and not before. Modern history tells us that the Macedonian people were forced out of their ancestral lands, and christian turkish settlers were transplanted from Anatolia to Macedonia in their place after the year 1913. Modern history tells us that these christian turkish settlers did not know the athenian language, and had to learn it. Modern history tells us that there were laws passed in the athenian nation to change the placenames and toponyms in Macedonia, in order to make them sound 'athenian'. Why don't we start there as a starting point mikelos???

Again, you cling on to the assumption that language is an ethnic identifier. We speak english today in order to communicate with people in a language that can be understood by the majority. It is the common language of today. In the future it may well be another language. The koine language was used in the same manner. I realise that there was no internet back in the day, but people would have had to learn this common language if they wanted to survive/trade or whatever they needed it for. I ask you mikele, why not speak to me in your athenian language? Why do you speak to me in english? By your logic, this makes us all english by ethnicity. Stupid logic, and you will need to come up with something better.

Mikele, so far all i have seen from you is light weight arguments that can easily be disproven. We Macedonians will have an answer to every absurd argument you throw at us, mainly by using common sense. You athenians use lies to cover up lies. You base your arguments on assumptions. That is why you athenian history is only valid in your nation, and it is not taken serious by professionals internationally.

My advice, get your story straight before you come on here and make a fool of yourself.

Pozdrav,
Your Macedonian friend

So, my argument is based on assumptions? The coin I presented you was an assumption? And your arguments are not? Give me break!

Why you don’t like to start from the very begging? Because it doesn’t suite you? And you believe that your language arguments are heavy while mine are light? Why not asking a historian to tell you the importance of language in peoples (all around the world) history? My friend, language IS HISTORY!

And please don’t repeat the English argument anymore. I understand what you say. Just remember that expect all these English documents that we (you and I) are posting right now, future generations will also find many documents in our own languages, so nobody will assume that we (you and I) are English. But we found no any “Ancient Macedonian” documents as proof of a language existence other than Greek!

We Macedonians can start at any point you settlers want. But my point was that ancient history is unclear to all of us, so why not start at a point where we both have records of??? if we start with ancient history, it is more of a case of making assumptions, and you athenians strive with assumptions and myths!

My confused friend, if you understand what i say about the english argument, how can you claim language = ethnicity? It's because it is the only argument you have, and it can be disproven by my argument. As i mentioned earlier, we are not sure what language the ancient Macedonians spoke. This is even shown by ancient and modern historians. So why assume that they spoke athenian when you are not sure? Even ancient historians claimed that the Macedonian spoke a barbaric tongue, which could not be understood by athenians.

I repeat, the koine language was the common language (lingua franca) at the time, and it was used in the athenian states, egypt, mediterranian, and Macedonia for purposes of common communication/trade between various peoples of different backgrounds. Why doesn't anyone speak the athenian language apart from the athenians these days? Because the language was a dead language that had to be revived when the athenian nation was first formed in the 1830's.

As i mentioned earlier Mikele, go and research your own family history before coming here and telling us who we are and who we aren't. That is the typical athenian way. Your govt. has a lor of explaining to do, and not just to us Macedonians, but also to it's own citizens - you! Your govt has backed itself into a corner with all it's lies, and i believe it will pay dearly.

Pozdrav,
Your Macedonian friend

If it’s unclear to you then you should go and make a history search because from my point of view is very clear. The coin I presented is not an assumption. It’s a fact.

Sure the Greek language was common language of the area. But Egypt and other Mediterranean countries had languages of their own and left written evidence. Macedonians left only Greek evidence but again this is a assumption, a lightweight argument and confusion because.. Simply you decided it to be!