The Birth of a Clone State
THE NATIONAL HERALD, NOVEMBER 1, 2008

Part III
The term clone is derived from κλών (klon), the Greek word for twig or branch, referring to the process whereby a new plant can be created from a twig.

On February 19, 1878, in the small Macedonian village of Litochoro on the lower slopes of Mt. Olympus overlooking the Aegean Sea, a group of brave Macedonian Greeks signed a Proclamation whereby “…the representatives of the various communities in Macedonia, overthrew the Sultan's tyrannical authority, declared the union of Macedonia with mother Greece…Therefore, we were forced to seek our arms so that we may die as men as Greeks if we are not allowed to live like logical and free men.” The Declaration of the Greek-inspired Provisional Government of Macedonia by it’s President Evangelos Korovangos requested protection from the ‘Christian Super Powers’ through their respective consulates in Ottoman-occupied Thessaloniki ‘for the justification of their fight and the unification with mother Greece.’ Unfortunately, the British Consulate quickly disclosed these plans to the Ottomans, and within two weeks the rebellion was crushed. Those ‘Christian Super Powers,’ through the subsequent Treaties of San Stefano and Berlin later that year, further ignored these pleas for freedom from Ottoman tyranny and have either borne witness to or even incited the savagery which was to follow.

Following the Treaty of Berlin, Pan-Slavists began a coordinated effort for Bulgaria to regain the region of Macedonia. Unwilling to simply overtake the region as that would seem too San Stefano-like and may again provoke the Great Powers, in 1893 ethnic Bulgarians formed the VMRO, or the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. The role of the VMRO, through a combination of predatory impulses of the Komitadji death squads on one hand and a Pan-Slavist educational mechanism using Russian agents disguised as clerics under the auspices of the Bulgarian Exarchate on the other, was to conduct a systematic inhumane ethno-catharsis through intimidation, terror and murder thereby eradicating from the Macedonian region the Greek element who were unwilling to succumb to Slavism. Using their motto “Macedonia for the Macedonians” this was a deceptive attempt to initially create an autonomous Macedonia which would later unite with Bulgaria.

The Serbs, not to be out-done by the Bulgarians, knew that directly suppressing the Bulgarian idea was impossible to achieve. Politician Stojan Novakovic conceived an active ethnogenesis process as a transitional stage in assimilating the regional element formulated upon the principle of Macedonia as a separate nation with it’s own language and history. He thought this ‘blueprint’ could attract the people and their feelings and thus sever them from Bulgarianism. This same doctrine of an ideological homogeneity was later adopted and meticulously implemented by Tito.

Today’s ruling party in FYROM is the VMRO-DPMNE (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization - Democratic Party for Macedonian National Unity), headed by Nikola Gruevski. Article 2 of the party’s Statute breaks down the acronym name. It states: “The first part of the name, VMRO, expresses the traditions of the Macedonian people from which the ideological and political struggle was subsequently integrated into the objectives and aims of the party.” This is inspired by the Pan-Slavist Bulgarian aspect of the Macedonism doctrine devised by the original founders of the VMRO.

Page one of the party’s current five-year program reads: “We particularly advocate the respect for the national and minority rights of Macedonians living in neighboring countries.” This relates to the Pan-Slavist Serb aspect of the irredentist ideology based on alleged homogeneity.

As the Russians, Bulgarians and Serbs were scheming their way to the Aegean Sea, Greece was fighting it’s own battles. The Greco-Turkish War of 1897 exposed Greece’s inability to liberate Macedonia at the time. With battle fronts in Crete, Macedonia, Epirus and the Aegean, Greece was understandably unable to militarily prevail in all simultaneously. The precipitous Ottoman demise was indeed additional incentive for Greeks in occupied territories to fight for their freedom. But the waters of the Aegean and the eastern Mediterranean were hostile to mother Greece and her oppressed sons. Great Britain’s desperate support for Ottoman sovereignty in order to keep Russian influence away from the Straits and Suez Canal was not only on display in the Congress of Berlin but also in the Mediterranean waters at Greece’s expense. In Martin Gilbert’s Churchill, 22-year old Brigade Major Winston Churchill writes to his mother questioning Lord Salisbury’s foreign policy strategy: “We are doing a very wicked thing in firing on the Cretan insurgents & in blockading Greece so that she cannot succour them…I look on this question from the point of view of right & wrong: Lord Salisbury from that of profit and loss.” (p. 68)

Today, in the center of Litochoro in the Pieria prefecture of Greece’s Macedonia province, a Heroes’ Memorial adorns the sloped landscape. The busts of Evangelos Korovangos and two other brave men honor those who died in 1878. They were the Crispus Attucks, Samuel Gray et al. of the true, Greek-inspired Macedonian Liberation Struggle. They were the first to fall for Macedonia. In recognition of these men who gave the ultimate sacrifice, I would like to cite Thucydides from The History of the Peloponnesian War as Pericles in his Funeral Oration so eloquently honors those who had first fallen in the war: “ανδρων γάρ επιφανων πασα γη τάφος” (2.43.3) meaning “for heroes have the whole earth for their tomb.” How fitting.

How the Balkans vote on U.S. elections


GREECE:
OBAMA 91%
Mc Cain :9%

ALBANIA
OBAMA:75%
Mc Cain:25%

BULGARIA
OBAMA:74%
Mc Cain:24%

ITALY
OBAMA:89%
Mc Cain:11%

CYPROYS
OBAMA:96%
Mc Cain:4%

KOSOVO
OBAMA:93%
Mc Cain:7%

TURKEY
OBAMA:82%
Mc Cain:18%

FYROM
OBAMA:45%
Mc Cain:55%

ONLY THE STUPID FYROMIANS VOTED FOR MC CAIN....
YOU CAN SEE HOW THE NON EXISTED BRAIN OF THIS PEOPLE WORKS...

I don’t expect any significant change in US behavior over Balkans. But I assume (and hope) that they will stop pulling the Greek side into a compromise related to the name issue.

STOP and FINISH the offencive dialogue that takes part between Macedonians and Slavomacedonians!
We have to live together and we have to open our minds for the common interest of all and peace!!!

Which of you believe that a close relation of the 2 countries isn't the best solution?
Macedonians have to accept the existence of Slavomacedonians and Slavomacedonians have to accept the fact that Greece has historical rights on macedonia and the 90% of the macedonian geografical territory!
Both can share the macedonian history that is part of Greek history not offending each other!
Let's start a serious dialogue on the issue!
Slavomacedonians feel ethnic as macedonians but forget that in greece feel macedonians too!!!
Any way we have to leave aside the hostility and understand that greeks aren't enemies of slavomacedonians but they are angry because they see maps with hostile messages from official sources, symbols to be used as belonging to the slavomacedonian side (having found only in greece and bellonging to the greek history but can be shared in other ways..)etc.
STOP HOSTILITY AND TALK BETWEEN US SERIOUSLY!!!

I somehow agree with “true Macedonian”. Of course, nobody can tell if Obama is the best choice. Only future will tell. But you must also agree that it’s weird for you to be the only country that supports McCain! I wont call you stupid but I think you are very much misleader. I have read articles in MINA that Obama means awfully bad news for your country. How serious is that?

Now about the minorities... I remind you what happened with YOUR minorities during the last election. You saw it, we saw it, all the world saw it and of course is documented in the last EU report, so please don’t talk about minorities and elections...

Expressing the sense of the Senate that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered... (Introduced in Senate)

SRES 300 IS


110th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. RES. 300
Expressing the sense of the Senate that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered Interim Agreement between FYROM and Greece regarding `hostile activities or propaganda' and should work with the United Nations and Greece to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals of finding a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM.


IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

August 3, 2007
Mr. MENENDEZ (for himself, Ms. SNOWE, and Mr. OBAMA) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


RESOLUTION
Expressing the sense of the Senate that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered Interim Agreement between FYROM and Greece regarding `hostile activities or propaganda' and should work with the United Nations and Greece to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals of finding a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM.

Whereas, on April 8, 1993, the United Nations General Assembly admitted as a member the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), under the name the `Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia';

Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 817 (1993) states that the dispute over the name must be resolved to maintain peaceful relations between Greece and FYROM;

Whereas, on September 13, 1995, Greece and FYROM signed a United Nations-brokered Interim Accord that, among other things, commits them to not `support claims to any part of the territory of the other party or claims for a change of their existing frontiers';

Whereas a pre-eminent goal of the United Nations Interim Accord was to stop FYROM from utilizing, since its admittance to the United Nations in 1993, what the Accord calls `propaganda', including in school textbooks;

Whereas a television report in recent years showed students in a state-run school in FYROM still being taught that parts of Greece, including Greek Macedonia, are rightfully part of FYROM;

Whereas some textbooks, including the Military Academy textbook published in 2004 by the Military Academy `General Mihailo Apostolski' in the FYROM capital city, contain maps showing that a `Greater Macedonia' extends many miles south into Greece to Mount Olympus and miles east to Mount Pirin in Bulgaria;

Whereas, in direct contradiction of the spirit of the United Nations Interim Accord's section `A', entitled `Friendly Relations and Confidence Building Measures', which attempts to eliminate challenges regarding `historic and cultural patrimony', the Government of FYROM recently renamed the capital city's international airport `Alexander the Great Airport';

Whereas the aforementioned acts constitute a breach of FYROM's international obligations deriving from the spirit of the United Nations Interim Accord, which provide that FYROM should abstain from any form of `propaganda' against Greece's historical or cultural heritage;

Whereas such acts are not compatible with Article 10 of the United Nations Interim Accord, which calls for `improving understanding and good neighbourly relations', as well as with European standards and values endorsed by European Union member-states; and

Whereas this information, like that exposed in the media report and elsewhere, being used contrary to the United Nations Interim Accord instills hostility and a rationale for irredentism in portions of the population of FYROM toward Greece and the history of Greece: Now, therefore, be it


Resolved, That the Senate--

(1) urges the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to observe its obligations under Article 7 of the 1995 United Nations-brokered Interim Accord, which directs the parties to `promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by state-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility' and review the contents of textbooks, maps, and teaching aids to ensure that such tools are stating accurate information; and

(2) urges FYROM to work with Greece within the framework of the United Nations process to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals by reaching a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM.

Michelos you are easily persuaded. Macedonians may have a negative vibe for Obama. Whether that will materialize, who knows? It could be just a greek myth. Only time will tell.

Don't ridicule us if we vote against a bad vibe.

Again those percentages of the Bulkans mean nothing. I don't beleive for a second they are representative of each respective nation.

Why would anybody vote for someone on a bad vibe??? Again I refer to the lost sheep as Anonymous is.

And Mr Anonymous under what pretext do you call yourself a Macedonian? As I understand it there are prefectures called East Macedonia for eg in Greece. I guess much the same as councils in Australia.

So which one are you, West, East or Central Macedonian.

EastMacedoniaprefecturian of Greece. Nice!


True Macedonian

Is it a negative vibe or a negative guidance? There are numerous articles that invite “Macedonian” diaspora to vote against Mr Obama. So it’s not just a vibe but something that was seed to your people from.. who knows? (you may know!)
You want more proof? Just look at the image of that article we are both putting comments: The picture of Obama with Greek titles!
Now, tell me, when a “Macedonian” sees this article, what his thoughts will be?

It's time for you self-proclaimed ethnic Macedonians to do some serious soul-searching. You can read some real history, for starters. Be assured that President Obama knows the truth about Macedonia. So does his Secretary of State-to-be. Macedonia is and always has been a part of Greece. A small section of it, Pelagonia and Gevgeli, is currently occupied by Slavs, oppressing the Greek minority there. In no way will these occupier Slavs monopolize the name.

THE PARTY IS OVER!

why don't you monkey greeks give your females to obama so he can inseminate them instead of putting him on a coin.what ever happens we are still MACEDONIANS and you are african monkeys

You can believe whatever you want, anonymous at 22:25. It doesn't make it true. It just proves that you're living in your own little world. You can lie to yourself all you want. I couldn't care less. Just understand that the American neocons (neoconservative politicians) fucked up on everything here in the U.S. From the economy to foreign policy. And part of that fucking up was supporting you whores because you offered them anything they want. So don't accuse us of offering our women to Obama. Go to Skopje to see what the American soldiers are doing to your women right now. So, you see, now you're gonna get fucked two ways.

Read up on S.Res. 300 to get a taste of the new Presidential shaft. So I ask you, mouth or ass?

Why is their a poster on this website in greek?????????

Maybe because Gruevski a.k.a. Grouios is Greek?

Gailturd is back! He/she dropped off for a while there. But it's good to here from him/her again. Cut-and-paste warrior.

A reminder to all athenians: Don't forget that no nation can meddle with Macedonian internal affairs, and that the name can only be changed by us, the Macedonians. Not by pretenders who were transplanted into Macedonia after 1913. I agree that we will need to learn to live together, but it's kind of hard when you athenians wish for us Macedonians not to exist at all. Why is your twisted new history in the region of Macedonia more important than ours? We have no modern history of population transplants into Macedonia (as you people do), so why not listen to our side of the story (the truth)? I believe it's because it does not suit your twisted agenda.

I know that there are athenians who are trying to be civil (eg. michelos.gr), but are still not informed on the real issues eg. our right to self identify, human rights of the Macedonian minority in the athenian nation.

I will reiterate: 'slav' is not/has never been an ethnicity. There is no 'slav' blood. Our ethnicity is Macedonian, and our Macedonian language belongs to the slavic family of languages. The Macedonians have not been transplanted into Macedonia, as christian turks were transplanted into Macedonia after 1913. What about slav-russians, slav-croats, slav-slovenians, slav-serbs? Isn't it more accurate to call them as such if you label us the same? I think the majority of the athenian haters should go back to their athenian think taks and come back with a better argument, because your argument towards us Macedonians can be disproven very easily.

And we Macedonians have learnt that it is these christian settlers who are most passionate about their issue with us Macedonians. Tell me, how can recent settlers have any history in a land that they have never stepped foot in before 1913??? Gailturd, i'm looking at you. I bet you a turkish coffee that your background is pontian/christian turk whose family was transplanted from Anatolia to Macedonia. The best that makes you is a geographic Macedonian, not a Macedonian.

Pozdrav (Greetings),
Your Macedonian friend

I'll bet anything that gailturd has ethnic turkish grandparents. His posts fit the description precisely.

How pathetic the greeks are?......
I have spoken to greeks over the years and they constantly lable Americans as idiots.

Now they are putting Obama's face on their coins!!!!!!!????????

And all for nothing, cause America will not reverse their decision on the recognition of ROM.


True Macedonian

Of course nobody can give you a name. Name your country as it pleases you as long as it’s not Macedonia. We never wanted to give you a specific name. But we can not accept Macedonia as a name. That’s our position, a position you (your country) has accepted. That’s why Nimitz exists and that’s what the intermit agreement is all about.

Of course, you will hear, from many Greeks, name your country this and name your country that but this is not an official position.

You talked about the right of self-identity. I agree. You have that right. Don’t we have the same right? Our problem with the “Macedonian” country is that by that name you try to monopolize everything Macedonian. We believe that ancient Macedonians were Greeks. You don’t. Fine. But you must agree that Greece has the largest part of Macedonia so it’s not fair to be excluded by the use of that name.
Keep in mind that, except the Greeks that arrived from Turkey, in the area of Macedonia there were also many native Greeks (among with other nations).

A comment made about Slavs are not a nation is right!!
But Slav is an ethnic family!!!
Macedonians as we are in Greece, we are even if we have never been in the geografical region cause this is our blood!!!
We are MACEDONIANS BY BLOOD - CULTURE - IDENTITY! as we are GREEKS!!!
You are 'Macedonians' by geografical position, but you forget that Skopia and the 90% of your country has nothing to do with geografical Macedonia!!!
We are trying to make a serious dialogue trying to make you understand that history is written by the whole world, not by you and your own historians...
Read european history from european sources and let's talk!!!
As long as you wish to becalled Macedonians... so to be clear who you are you have to define your difference from greeks, saying SLAVOMACEDONIANS as Gligorov (your president, and many of your officials admited..) said!
I AM A MACEDONIAN (by heart!!!)

"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])
Για επικοινωνία

The reason that this absurd "claim" by the Bulgarian half of FYROM has not succeeded in hi-jacking the ancient Greek name of Macedonia is that despite all the cynical and hypocritical "Realpolitik" games going on in the region, there are real world issues and historical facts that cannot be avoided. These may well now factor more in the new US administrations 'lower priority'.

It is also why the UN and EU are still insisting on a compromise on the name - which is more than this fabricated mish-mash of a country deserves - but such a settlement will serve other interests in the region.

It is also why all the "angry demands" and "claims" by these hi-jackers of history, which when seen all together, manage to mostly contradict themselves or end up in "indignant" yet baseless and historically absurd "arguments".

It also a sad state of affairs when a mixed group of slavo-Bulgarians, who are a left over from the Balkan wars and Tito's clumsy attempts of territorial gains (and access to the Mediterranean sea) try to hijack the ancient Greek name of Macedonia to give themselves an "identity".

Something which was clearly stated by Secretary of State Edward R. Stettinius (Dec. 26, 1944)This government considers talk of Macedonian “nation,” Macedonian “Fatherland,” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.

Any and all attempts to try and diminish this clear assessment is just another pathetic and desperate measure by these hapless Bulgarians.

Further more even Bulgaria doesn't recognize the existence of Macedonians even in the Republic of Macedonia quite rightly considering all FYROM "macedonians" as Bulgarians.

On the other hand, the heritage, cities and monuments of Alexander were and are GREEK
carved in marble that no devious or pathetic attempts to re-write history or brown nosing those who indulge in so-called "great games" can erase.

This sad and latest episode of the these displaced Bulgarians - who also have to deal with a large Albanian minority - is more a case of 'the mouse that roared' (with the cynical support of others with rather devious agendas) than a case of legitimate "claims" to a so-called "ethnic" identity.

It is time to put a stop to this nonsense and deal with the realities of not only the region but of the real world social-economic and environmental problems that we ALL have to face in THIS century.

Greece has never wanted anything to do with the name Macedonia, Macedonian ethnically or nationality. This is widely documented over the past 100 years.

There are 100s of thousands of Macedonians that do not feel greek from Angean Macedonia that both live in Greece or in the diaspora.
This is widely documented and can be proved.

To say that macedonians can only be greek is a fulsification of ones culture, ethnicity and human right.

That which modern turkish settlers have maintained in the past and escelated in the past 20 years only.

Greece has only occupied macedonia in the last 100 years only.

Macedonia has occupied greece not Greece occupied Macedonia in antiquity (to all the greeks that don't get that....psst! its the other way around!)

There are greek inscriptions found in Asia Minor, Bulgaria, Italy and Albania. I don't see the Athenians pushing them to change any name.

Macedonians pre AD spoke largely spoke an unstructured language (investigations are continuing). Certain members of higher society adopted the Attic greek for trade and commerce purposes only.

It’s well documented that Greeks were using Macedonia name over the past hundred years. Thessaloniki’s International fair trade and various Greek encyclopedias prove that. I posted similar proves many times here but it seems you are too blind to see them.

Of course there are hundreds of thousands Macedonians. There more than 2 million in the Greek part. Your problem is that they consider themselves as Greeks. You have the right of self-identity. So we!

Greeks don’t force Albanians to change their name because Albanians do not claim history or land. You do.

Macedonians pre AD spoke Greek. Their inscriptions were in Greek. Their currency were in Greek.
The last one is important. Everyone that used Macedonian coins had to deal with Greek letters. And you tell us that only higher society adopted Greek? Or maybe you think that Macedonians were so stupid that produce coins nobody (from the people) were able to understand?

Michelos, you seem to be an intellegent man.

Answer this question for me:

How can 2 million "macedonians" consider themselves Greek now living in Angean Macedonia, BUT Hundreds of thousands of macedonians living in the diaspora born and bread in the Aegean region do not condider to have any greek consiousness whatsoever?

In your answer consider the point that the bulk of these macedonians emigrated to other countries such as Australia and America not more than 30-40 years ago.


True Macedonian

the greeks and the hellines....
why all the world call them greeks and not hellines. The only people who call them self hellines is ...greeks. No one else. Why?
The language they spoke till the 1830 call it even from them "greek" or "rum" not hellinika.Officially the greek state give the name hellinika to this idiom in 1830.
Simply greeks are steal the hellenic history
The people who are calling them selfs hellines today have albanian(alvanites) romanian (arumuns vlahs) or turkish (pontii) roots

To all athenians, i repeat my statement: There is no such 'slavic ethnicity'!. No nation in the world has an ethnicity that is slavic. If you do not believe me, go and ask another nation that uses a slavic language eg. russia, croatia, serbia, slovenia etc. So you argument is flawed from the very beginning. Our Macedonian language is related to the slavic family of languages, and our ethnicity is, and always will be Macedonian. There is no ethnic slavic family.

So michelos, who gives you athenians the right to say we cannot call ourselves Macedonians? We Macedonians have never vacated the Macedonian land, and I repeat, we have never been transplanted into Macedonian lands. On the other hand, you people have! This occurred after 1913. Christian turkish settlers, whom didn't know the athenian language, were transplanted into Macedonia from Anatolia, and were taught how to read/write/speak the athenian language. Do your research and you will find that this is fact! So how can you people be Macedonian by blood when you had nothing to do with Macedonia before being transplanted into Macedonia? On the same note, how can you be athenian? You settlers can only be geographic Macedonians, not Macedonians.

We Macedonians have never claimed that there were no athenians on Macedonian land (there were small pockets of athenians in the coastal areas) but the majority of the population was ethnic Macedonian, hence the name of our land - Macedonia.

Also, your dubious claims that anyone who speaks the koine language must have been athenian. Well my turkish blooded friends, you people communicate with me using the english language - the common language to all of us. In reality this must make you puppets English in ethnicity?!?! Well say hi to queen elizabeth for us all then! lol.

You can notice by my post that your athenian logic can be disproven extremely easy. There was nothing 'athenian' about Macedonia before the year 1913. Now there are even some political parties inside athens that believe that we Macedonians have every right to be called Macedonians. The truth has a funny way of being put forward, and I guarantee that there will be more shocking truths that will hit the athenian nation in the face like a crumbling parthenon, in the future.

Pozdrav do site Makedonci!
Your Macedonian friend

To True Macedonian :
To Before 30 – 40 years many Greeks also immigrated to other countries. What’s your point? If my grant parent says that he is Macedonian while on the same time he says that he is Greek (which according to your point of view, this is impossible but... hey, how can you change an 80 years old mind?) how he will be recorded? What if he was outside Greece? The truth is that, like you have Macedonians around the globe, so we do. And we also have Cretans, Peloponisians and so on..

To my Macedonian Friend
1. In the times of ancient Greece and Macedonia there was no Internet, no telephone and no television. So, the majority of the population had not the need to know 2nd or 3rd language. I hope you understand that. So, the question is, why Macedonians used Greek letters and words on their currencies (and not only)? Why we didn’t find anything else than Greek? My dear friend, when you examine the past you must use the rules of that time, not of the present. So, at that time, you were able to learn Greek only if your parents knew Greek or if your parents were very rich.

2. We have this right because we own more than half of the ancient part of Macedonia. This gives us the right not to allow you monopolize the name. Simple as that! I will not say that you have no rights to that name (other Greeks may kill me for saying this!) but you don’t have exclusive rights. That’s what I believe.

3. Greeks from Pontos were speaking a different kind of Greek. That’s a fact. It was difficult to understand. That’s also a fact. Now, today, if you go to villages that pontians are living you will also hear different kind of Greek. If you go to Crete, you will also hear different kind of Greek. The same applies to other islands. If you go to Florina you will also hear a more Slavic version of Greek. How can you tell us that all these languages were not Greek? Even in the ancient times, Attica Greek was a bit different than Spartan Greek or others.

Michelos, in what way did you greeks own half of ancient macedonia. How do you come to this conclusion? Before 1913 show me evidence of a greek occupied macedonia. why was greece not extented in 1821 to include "half of ancient macedonia"? Surely this should have happened if they owned half of it.
That being said point out to me a macedonian uprising to take the land away from the greeks.


And, you didn't answer my question. How can a Macedonian living in the diaspora being born and bread in Aegean Macedonia emmigrating only 30-40 years ago consider him/herself as a Macedonian only. Not Greek.
There are 10s of thousands in Australia. And the figure must run into the 100s of thousands around the world.

True Macedonian

In what way? Excuse me? Are we or are we not owning (TODAY!) more than half of Macedonia?

And yes, I answered your question. In the same way that somebody consider him-her self as Greek and Macedonian. And in your case, maybe they feel more hate to the Greeks because of the civil war events.

So you admit that your part is called Macedonia. What kept you. You occupied the land since 1913 why did it take you 75 years to admit there is a macedonia.

When you refer to macedonia you must remember that Macedonia proper is much larger than your part. Your occupation of Angean Macedonia is born about by treaties and secret agreements.
There is nothing in the treaties that say he who owns the largest section can dictate the terms.

As far as I'm concerned, the greeks tried to erradicate everything that it macedonia and macedonian. Therefore you are only greeks.

Those macedonians living in the diaspora make no mention of the greek civil war. They just say they were never greek.


True Macedonian

Hey prijateli may i have your attencion...
A new version of greek language is "born"
In one of his messages mr michelos writin
"If you go to Florina you will also hear a more Slavic version of Greek"
hahahaha... This joke will be THE JOKE OF THE YEAR...Hahahaha .Well I think all those greeks have serius brain damage...

Slavic version of Greek. hahaha

That's a good one. Gotta write that one donwn. I've never heard of that one before.



True Macedonian

Michelos, now i've heard it all! 'Slavic version of greek'??? Are you serious?? Is there other athenians that believe there is a slavic version of the athenian language? Has the athenian government affect your brains that much??? Michelos, while you might acknowledge that there is something not right with the story you have been given by the athenian government, i wouldn't be going around claiming that there is a slavic version of the athenian language! You are sounding more uneducated on the issue with every post you write.

If you do proper unbiased research, you will find that no part of Macedonia was ever part of the athenian nation before 1913, EVER! That is fact! And the truth is, when the christian turkish settlers were transplanted from Anatolia to Macedonia after 1913, THEY DID NOT KNOW THE ATHENIAN LANGUAGE, and had to be taught in schools how to read/write/speak the athenian language. This part of athenian history has been left out of your history books because it does not suit your racist agenda. I have no problem with you christian turks calling yourselves 'greek Macedonians', because that is enough of a difference to me. No one has denied you athenians the right to call yourselves as such. But we are Macedonians, by ethnicity, and we have not been transplanted from anywhere. We have been there before you guys were transplanted in 1913. There is written evidence of the population transplant of your people, and it is recent enough for us Macedonians to remember.

Only we Macedonians can choose our name, and we have chosen the name that has been passed down to us from our fathers, grandfathers etc. It is impossible for you athenians to erase Macedonia from our name. With every name that you athenians come up for us, whether it's 'slav macedonian' or 'north macedonian', we are still Macedonian!

You christian turks are no more than geographic Macedonians, not ethnic Macedonians. We have our own history, our own culture, and it is different from the christian settlers that arrived in Macedonia after 1913. It has been said before by some athenian: without the transplant of christian turks into Macedonia, 'greek Macedonia' would never exist.

Here is a test to all settlers if you dare: Ask your parents and grandparents whether they know/knew how to speak a language other than athenian. If the answer is yes (high probability), ask them how they were able to know this other language without it being taught to them. You will come to the conclusion that the language that they spoke before learning the athenian language is THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE, and they were forced to learn the athenian language in order to look/feel/behave as though they were athenians, when infact they were not!

Pozdrav do site!
Your Macedonian friend

It’s obviously you don’t want to understand on what I am telling you. When I saying Slavic version of Greek I am talking about Greek language affected by the Slavic population of the nearby area. The same language appears differently depending on who are you interacting with. If you prefer me to call it a Greek version of Slavic then it’s ok. However you must admit that people of Macedonia (or South-coast Macedonia if you prefer) had a more mixture language than north. If you can’t understand that a language is a “living” thing that it becomes more rich through it’s use and by interacting with other nations then I am sorry for you!

To true Macedonian :
I said over and over, and I presented facts here, that the “Macedonian” name was used on these 75 years you mention. But you like to focus on the name change of “Macedonian – Thrace ministry. So, let me repeat myself : 1) Makedonikos FC was founded in 1928. Did you recognize the name? That FC still exists so obviously no government forced them to change the name! 2) Greek Encyclopaedia “Helios” of 19th Dec. 1947 makes many references to the Macedonian name and history. Obviously Macedonian name was not forbidden at that time! 3) On the official guide of 20th International Fair Trade of Thessalonike (1955) Macedonia is referred as… Macedonia. That trade fair was (and still is) organized by the state so the state was also using Macedonia name.
I don’t know who told you that we started loving Macedonia in the 90s but obviously, he wanted to mislead you.

To Macedonian friend :
There is no need to make such test because you will find the expected results. If I ask my grant mother she will tell me that her native language was different. My grant mother (mother side) is from a village near Thessaloniki while my father’s parents are from a village on Crete. All of them were speaking a somewhat different language that the common Greek. When I was kid I had more problems to understand the Cretan dialect than the rest, simply because I was living in Thessaloniki and I had rare contact with them.

Now, according to your point of view, can you tell me which of my grant parents are not Greek?

The 'slavic' language that you speak of is different to the athenian language, so what are you talking about? I'm not talking about dialects here, i'm talking about languages different to athenian. Even today in the Republic of Macedonia there are different dialects of Macedonian, but it is the same language throughout the nation.

Michelos, I asked you whether your parents/grandparents spoke any language other than athenian, and you agreed they did. You say that your grandmother (mother's side) is from a village close to Solun (Salonika). I bet you anything that your grandmother will tell you that her native language was none other than that language that you athenians despise so much, that 'cursed slav langauge' from up north - the Macedonian language. Just ask her a few questions about it, and if she is truthful, she will reveal to you that your family history has ties to that of the people you athenians say don't exist - Macedonians. You will probably find that your grandmother will inform you that this language that she knows was used in the region before your athenian one was forced onto people when Macedonian land was taken by athens for the first time ever in 1913. Your grandmother had to learn the athenian language, she did not speak it at home when she was young. It was imposed on her unnaturally. If i am right about your grandmother, you may have a connection with being Macedonian, but you deny it totally by claiming to be 'pure athenian'.

You yourself have admitted that your family history doesn't add up to what the athenian govt has been saying, and I see that as an honorable thing from someone who is athenian. Most athenians would deny that in their family history there are traces of different languages/cultures that have nothing to do with the modern nation of athens. But seeing as you do not know the history of Macedonia (apart from being fed lies by your govt), how can you question our ethnicity/culture/customs when you yourself don't have all the answers of your own background???

Michelos, i'd like to speak to you on a more personal level rather than writing posts on a news site, but i'm not sure how it would be possible.

Pozdrav do site Makedonci!
Your Macedonian friend

First of all, we have to make an assumption: Governments always spread propaganda and always try to manipulate people for their own cause. So, I will be the last man on earth that I will defend the Greek government (and any other government).

Well sorry but I was talking about dialects. And as you know the more close to different people you are, the more differences you find in the language. Only isolated communities manage to keep their languages pure and you know very well that Balkan countries were never isolated.

This weekend I was talking with my grandparents of my mother’s side (unfortunately, they are the only living grandparents) about this, and of course I asked them if they knew people that they were speaking any Slavic language and they responded that there are such people. This is not surprise. But they are not so many (as many of you think) and today they are very “mixed” (and who is not?). Do they consider themselves as non-Greek? I can not tell but neither can you.
The truth is that this area suffered a lot during the civil war. Greek army against communists and the Bulgarian army against the Greeks. Yes. That village, 70kg outside Thessaloniki has been invaded many times by Bulgarians and many times they were executing adult men mostly.

I don’t know anybody who deny his family history. Most of my friends have a weird history. Simply because this land has a weird history. And I don’t understand that you mean by say that I don’t have all the answers. What are the questions that I should answer?

PS : I live in Thessaloniki. Not too far from your country… ;-)

So, in effect, what you are saying is that you believe that this 'slavic' language as you call it is an athenian dialect.

It is obvious that you do not have a clear picture of your family history Michelos. So why do you question our Macedonian history, instead of researching your own background????

You say that your family admits that there are people that speak this 'slavic' language - i, as may others, call this language Macedonian. The people that speak 'slavic' language were not transplanted into Macedonia, they have been there long before the christian turkish settlers were moved from anatolia to Macedonia. They are the 'dopios' people. You say it is no surprise, so why does the athenian govt deny that these people exist? Why cannot they have the right of self determination? Why can't they have their own schools which teach their own language, and be allowed to practice their own culture/beliefs/customs??? why? why? why? These people were there before you settlers. Why are they not Macedonians? The truth is they are nothing but Macedonians. Ask your grandmother where these 'slavs' came from, or if they have always been there. Ask if your grandmother is one of these 'slavs' and hope she gives you a real answer. You do not have to tell me the results of these questions, but it will give you a true picture of the history of Macedonia, whether you like to acknowledge it or not.

The truth is that many of you athenians do deny your family history, because the majority of you believe you are related to the ancient peoples (be it ancient Macedonians or hellenes or whatever), when in fact you people do not originally come from the area you now live in. The truth is that the ancient peoples are long gone. How can you people be pure athenians if your family history shows otherwise. You athenians choose to ignore the modern history of the area, and how you came to be on the land of Macedonia.

Well my country is Macedonia. The majority of us are actually friendly people. You should visit sometime, you might learn more about your province called Macedonia, and what really happened when Macedonia was divided in 1913.

Pozdrav (Greetings),
Your Macedonian friend

Excuse me Macedonian friend but... when did I say that I am Athenian? It’s always you who use that name, not me. Maybe you like to use Athenian in the same way as Greeks use Skopian but you will notice than I never called you by than name.

So, about the language. Our major problem with your language is that it cannot be called Macedonian, simply because it’s unrelated to the Ancient Macedonian. I understand that Slavic alphabet has some connections to the Greek alphabet but the language is not. So, all these ancient inscriptions (that found in Macedonia) are simply unrelated to your language. If the ancient Macedonians were speaking something like Greek (I say something because not all Greek cities were speaking exactly the same Greek) how your language can be called Macedonian?

As for the people, I agree 100% with you. People should be allowed to use – practice their own language, schools etc. If my government (did I mention how much I love them? :-) ) denies that right then I will blame them first. But... let me ask you something.. are there (or not) any Greeks in your land? Do you know anything about their rights? I am not saying that it’s fair to deny peoples rights because other government deny your people rights but you must realize that your government (current and past) behaved not so good as you may thing.

I really don’t have any problems with people or your country. I event had friends in the past (although we never discussed that issue!!!)

Mikele, can you show me solid evidence of the ancient Macedonian language? Not even historians know exactly what the ancient Macedonians spoke, but many historians (ancient and recent) believe they spoke a language different to athenian. Again you believe that language equates to ethnicity. You speak/communicate with me using the english language. Does this mean your ethnicity is english? Are you from england??? Say hi to the queen for me!

Your govt does deny the right for the Macedonians to use their language, teach the language in schools, practice their customs/culture/beliefs, so why don't you go and protest about that in front of your racist govt? There are athenians in Republic of Macedonia - between 400-500 athenians. This has been determined through census, something which the athenian nation refuses to do! Why? My guess is that they don't want to be exposed as a nation which is lying to the international community. But slowly, the minorities in you country (which you people claim there are no minorities) are standing up, and athens will pay a big price for the wrongs they have committed. Another stupid claim i've heard from the athenians is that the vlachs are actually athenians, and the athenian govt counts these people as such. But the vlachs in Macedonia are allowed to self identify (something that is not allowed in the athenian nation), and they are not athenians. This is another lie that the athenian govt has claimed.

You obviously do have a problem with us Macedonians if you deny our right to self identify. You have written about your family background, and even you yourself say that you and your friends have a wierd family background, but we Macedonians have not denied you the right to identify as an athenian, ever.

Mikele, I am waiting for your evidence of the ancient Macedonian language. Good luck! lol

Greetings,
Your Macedonian friend

Greece and Greek is English word which refer to Greco_Roman people and country. In the root of this word does not mean Helen, Elada or Elenni..

´Greece´, on the other hand, is derived from the Latin Graecia, the province of the western Roman Empire which stretched south of Mount Olympus through the peninsula of Attica and the Peloponnese. Its International use to describe the sovereign state that currently occupies that territory is merely a reflection of the fact that ´Greece´ in this modern sense is literally a western invention.

Hellens is a ancient culture, that is not national identity. Hellen culture belong to many nation. Ancient nation was: Macedonian, Spartan, Athenians, Arvantes, Illyrian, Thracian, but not Greeks. Your name during the Great Estern Roman Empire was Romioni. All coins, inscription from that time writen in roman script shown just one there is not Greeks or Greece. Even your language in the beging was Romanoi language. You first grammar from the end of 18 ad is Romanoi Grammar.

Michael Dimitri:
quote: " the term "hellene" which is often translated as the ethnic identification "Greek" did not necessarily mean that to the ancients.

Another Athenian statesman, Isocrates (436-338 B.C.), says in his Panegyricus:
'And so far has out city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name "Hellenes" suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title "Hellenes" is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood.
Therefore, the term Hellene in ancient times had about the same meaning as some of the cultural generalities we use today such as Western Civilization or Oriental. They are somehow fluid and have little, if any value.
This leads to another question; how did the ancient Greeks determine who was a "hellene" in an ethnic sense?
There were two criteria; one was the person participated in the Olympics, the other was that a city or region had fought on the Greek side of the Trojan War. The Macedonians fit neither of these criteria.

(Michael A. Dimitri, "The Radiance of Ancient Macedonia," Fort Wayne, 1992, pg. 17)

In 1913, after the war for the division of Macedonia end, each occupation side change the identity of Macedonians, the people which land was divided on three parts. More foreign researchers after the division of Macedonia in 1913 have created some image about the people who living there. They explained that like this:
There were three brothers(usual name: Kuzman, Filip and Jovan),one is left in Aegean Macedonia, and the Greeks authorities called him - Greek, second who live in Pirin part of Macedonia and Bulgars authorities consider him as Bulgarian, while the third one who live to Vardar part of Macedonia, Serbian authorities saw him as a Serb. Their conclusion was that the all three brothers are from one mother and one father, but the irrational Balkan and European policy in that time make them strangers.

Today Modern Greek Language was a result of the Big Language Reform in 1976. The base of that language was found in the Old Church's Books. The Greek Vocaboulary contain about 70% of archaic words, i.e. words with unknown origin, i.e. the words that wasn't found in the Old Books, but widly spoken by people. Many of these Archaic words are Macedonian and Turkish.

Macedonian words in greek vocabulary:
Avlija = Авлија (двор)=Αυλή= back yard,
adamant = скапоцен камен = αδαμας,διαμαντη = diamod,
aktapod=октопод= χταπόδι=octopus,
angarija = ангарија (мачна работа за џабе)=αγγαρεία = hard work,
andart = андарт (партизан) αντάρτης=partisan,
aresam = арeзан = αρέζω,
armasnitsa = арманиса (бендисување, свршеница) = αρμοστή, μνηστή=fiancee,
elate = елате, дојдете=να έρθετε= come,
harno / arno = арно =χαρούμενος, καλός,
hiljada = илјада = χιλιάδα=thousand,
kada = када (корито, кофа)=κάδος=bucket,
kalup = калап, калап за обувки = καλαπόδι=shoe last, mould,
klonka = клонка, заклон = κλωναράκι=shelter,
komat = комад (парче) = κομμάτι= piece,
kofnid = кофа= κοφινιδι, κοφίνι=crate,
leunka = бремена жена=λεχώνα=pregnant
horo / oro = оро = χορός=dance,
magare = магаре=γομάρι=donkey,
mirisam = мирисам=μυριζω=smelling
mirudija = мирудија, зачин=μυρουδιά= spice,
murenka = муренка (дуденка) μουριά= kind of fruite,
mustak = мустаќ=μουστάκι= moustache,
pratim = пратам = κάνω, κατασκευάζω , πράττω= follow,
parjasnitsa = избега, развод, испраќа = ζωντοχήρα απο το ρήμα παριαζω, παρατώ=quit, divorse,
sevgar = ѕевгар (пар)=ζευγάρι= pair, couple,
sviram = свирам=σφυρίζω, παίζω μουσική η ένα μουσικό όργανο = play music,
tipkanje = типкање, допир = χτύπημα απο το ρήμα τύπτω = touch,
zugraf = зограф = ζωγράφος = painter,

Turkish words in greek vocabulary:
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Dalavere - Trick, deceit- Dalavere
Dalga - Wave (sorrow,love in G.)- Dalka
Dantel - Lace - Ntantella
Darbuka - Drum - Ntarbuka
Davul - Drum - Ntauli
Defne - Laurel - Dafni
Defter- Notebook - Tefteri
Demet - Bouquet- Demati
Dervis - Dervish - Dervisis
Dert - Sorrow, trouble- Derti
Farfara- Empty headed, frivolity- Farfara
Fasulye - Bean - Fasoulia
Fener - Lantern - Fanari
Ferman - Sultan's word - Firmani
Fincan- Cup - Flitzani
Gaf - Mistake, blunder - Gafa
Gaile - Care ,Difficulty- Gaila
Galeta- Breadcrumbs- Galeta
Gargara - Gargle- Gargara
Haber- News- Haberi
Hali- Carpet, rug - Hali
Halka- Ring - Halkas
Hamam- Turkish bath - Hamami
Hamal- Porter- Hamalis
etc....