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TENSIONS IN ROME



National.

Greece blamed the officials and church leaders in Macedonia of irredentist policy that jeopardizes the Balkans' stability and hampers the country's entry into EU and
NATO.

The latest verbal flare-up came during a memorial service in Rome at the tomb of St. Cyril on Saturday, after the statement of Archbishop Stefan, the head of Macedonian Orthodox Church, who claimed that Greece denies the existence of the Macedonian nation and Macedonian Church.

"St. Cyril, today in your and our Thessaloniki, everything you did has turned to stone. Today, in your city of birth, everything has been rendered ashes and dust, and not a single letter remains from your and our language. Today it is forbidden not only that this language be spoken, but its very existence itself. Everything Macedonian is persecuted and displaced, while the name of our country and church, and the truth itself, is disputed," Archbishop Stefan said during the memorial event for St Cyril held at San Clemente church in the Vatican.

Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said "such irredentist statements are dangerous for regional cooperation and stability in the fragile region of the Balkans".

Bakoyannis said Archbishop Stefan's statements, made in the presence of Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski, were "extremely provocative and totally unacceptable", and proved "firstly, the correctness of the Greek arguments and stands that insist on the need for resolving the name issue.

"As long as the problem remains unsolved, it will serve as the tool and vehicle of an outdated and historically unfounded irredentism that is dangerous for regional cooperation and stability of the fragile region of the Balkans," Bakoyannis said.

"The neighbouring country cannot look forward to Euro-Atlantic future as long as it remains captive to irredentist rationales of the past," she added.

On behalf of the Greek Church, Metropolitan Antimos of Thessaloniki made it clear that Greece would never agree that Macedonia name be stolen or used by its northern neighbours.

Thessaloniki mayor and MPs of various parties joined the condemnation. A number of daily newspapers commented the statement of Archbishop Stefan.


MD: Nicely said by Archbishop Stefan!!

[Makfax]

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FUCK OFF YOU GREEK CUNTS ''' YES YOU HEARD ME FUCK OFF ''' AND MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS AND STOP STICKING YOUR FUCKEN SHIT IN SOMEONE ELSE'S CULTURE.MAY BE DORA SHOULD BE PUT ON A CROSS AND CRUCIFIED HER.

THEN YOU FUCKING GREEKS CAN HAVE A DORA DAY INSTEAD OF EASTER.

"nicely" said heh?

A nation of idiots, that's why you 're not going anywhere EU, NATO, whatever.

You're going to rot in your own quagmire, and you deserve it.

YOU FUCK WHIT. there are about 195 countries in the world and you fucken greeks think you are the only country in the world who can dictate to a smaller country to change there culture. And also allow your churches to interfere in politics. I thought Greece wanted to be part of the modern world not a draconian one.
So you go and rot in your own bog.

The 'F' word is in fashion, its anonymous user is probably an agent trying to provoke bad feelings between two neighbours. Nice try Mr. Anonymous.
But the Bishop's language was even less theological; thousands of silent voices in Skopje condemned him! Those who support him do NOT know what they want or how to achieve it.

YES THE 'F 'WORD DOSE NOT STAND FOR FASHION IT STANDS FOR FUCKWITS

there are about 195 countries in the world and you fucken greeks think you are the only country in the world who can dictate to a smaller country to change there culture.

Wake up bubblehead, some reality check for you:

1)We're the only country with Macedonia being part of our country.
China, the US, Guatemala or Sudan haven't got a clue about the issue and couldn't care less.
It is with Greece you have to compromise.

2)We don't give a damn about your culture. We consider macedonian heritage part of our own culture and don't like it to be stolen by some Slavic leftover of the 20th century.
In Greece we have a proverb:
"The thief shouts, so that the landowner is intimidated"
That's the case with you people.


I thought Greece wanted to be part of the modern world not a draconian one.

Greece IS already part of the modern world.
If you also want to become one, stop acting like a small-time bully who thinks everything is his and everyone should pay service to him.
That's what your Archbishop did in Rome.
And you congratulate him, instead of condemning him.

GROW UP.

guess what i'm doing now? fucking your greek sister up the ass you piece of shit.fuck your greek church fuck every thing that comes from you guys and dora looks like she got a coock up her ass

Anon: 12:31

If your the only country in the world with Macedonia in it then why did you leave Bulgaria out?

That's funny we don't give a damn about your culture either.

How can the theif shout when it is the land owner????
You better check that proverb again.

If we're just small stupid Slavic leftovers with no history or language, then why don't you:

make Aegean Macedonia a province of greece

Rename it say New Greek Macedonia. (Not like the current map with northern greece and Macedonia spread accross the north in texter).

allow the people to speek and learn their chosen toungue.

Show me how modern you greeks can be.

WELL GO ON.....WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?

LOL!!! Oh wise one, your comments fall like gentle snow from the pillars of wisdom... :-). Can we now have a few comments from you on regional developments with the Albanians and the future of Hellenic civilisation?
ps. We already know how you like it 'Ottoman style'... can we move on?

we don't need nato un eu .we will all ways be macedonians no matter how much ass you fucken greeks give to other nations .
MACEDONIA WAS
MACEDONIA IS
MACEDONIA WILL BE
FOR EVER
so just live it you african leftovers.and how come you fucken greeks come on saturday in melbourne if macedonia was yours.fucken how stuped is this greek or macedonian ,make up your fucken minds you boneheads.

13:40 Ottoman empire you also have tasted and still is your style, so will you please move on and allow Macedonia to move forward. You are not Macedonian you have only stolen part of the original Macedonia. And we do not have to cut and past history from past blogs do we????????

Nice flag!!!
http://taxalia.blogspot.com/2008/05/blog-post_1280.html

You people are very funny. For some reason you believe that people is forbidden to speak some language and if someday the government allows free speech then everybody in Thessaloniki will start speak your language! Very funny indeed!
This is why I like to visit forums like this!

make Aegean Macedonia a province of Greece
Excuse me? You want us to call it Aegean Macedonia? Why?
Sorry but we prefer to use East, Central and West Macedonia because of organization reasons.

You are the landowners? Since when?
As far as I know, in the times of Philip and Alexander, in this land, there were people speaking and writing Greek. When did this land become yours?

And we didn’t left Bulgaria out.. you left it… If you thing we don’t know your problems with Bulgaria you are mistaken!

OK Michelos, so your not daunted by the task of free speach. Well go and give a seminar in the heart of Solun in macedonian and see what your greek govt/preists/people say.

Then come back and post your experiences in this funny forum.

I don't know why you refer to Alexander and Philip, but the greek land titles office was working 24/7 around 1913. The conveyancers at the time must have been making a packet.

Central/West/East Macedonia. That is quite lame really. To say the least. You pride yourselves of being ancient macedonians. Who are you trying to prove your macedonian heritage to yourselves or the world.

For example, I heard on the local news about floods in "Northern Greece". No mention of a macedonia anywhere.

So again, who are you trying to kid that you greeks are macedonians.

It has already happened. There was a conference on the Slavomacedonians of Greece in Thessaloniki, and it was in the Slavomacedonian dialect.

I don’t know about the conference that AlfaVitas is mentioning. But it wouldn’t surprise me. Also it wouldn’t surprise me (to be honest, I will expect it) if priests and people go against it. But tell me, wouldn’t you react the same? You believe that we are your No 1 enemy. How would you react on a similar conference at your country?

You know perfectly well the reason I am mentioning Philip and Alexander! It seems you want to avoid talking about it…

We use “Northern Greece” as we use the Macedonia and Thrace. Excuse me but when you want to refer to east part of your country, how you call it? East Macedonia? Why we don’t have the right to use North, East, and South the way you do? I remind you that North Greece contains Macedonia, Thrace and North Epirus (our part).


So, again, who are you trying to fool that we are not Macedonians and that you are the only Macedonians?

why did you leave Bulgaria out?

Reality check:

Bulgaria doesn't recognise any "macedonian" nation or language, either.
It recognises only a state with that name because they want to incorporate you.

And they should succeed if you follow your former PM's example and become bulgarian citizens.


How can the theif shout when it is the land owner????
You better check that proverb again.


You better check your reading comprehension exercises.
The proverb refers to the nerve, such as yours, to declare as one's own what it doesn't belong to them.


If we're just small stupid Slavic leftovers with no history or language, then why don't you:
make Aegean Macedonia a province of greece
Rename it say New Greek Macedonia. (Not like the current map with northern greece and Macedonia spread accross the north in texter).
allow the people to speek and learn their chosen toungue.


You're such an ignoramus jackass you don't even know what you're talking about.

Again:

1) Your "history" and "language" doesn't entitle to the exclusive use of the term "macedonian". There are much more more Macedonians in Greece than all of you in FYROM and they don't want to have anything to do with you.

2) Moreover, you are not entitled to use ancient and modern macedonian symbols and figures as your own, and as dinstinct from Greek heritage.

It's historically completely false, it is absurd, it is insulting for Greek Macedonians and it is irredentist, as the recent comments by your Archbishop showed.

3) You should rename your part "New Slavic Macedonia". We have come to make this consession, out of pity for your situation, but you don't seem to deserve this either.

4) Stop the expansionist bullying. The idiom spoken at parts of Greek Macedonia has little connection with your current language in FYROM.
It is heavily influenced by Greek and was spoken by many ethnic groups at the beginning of the century.

This doens't mean that those who speak it share your illusion of an ever present "macedonian" nation through the ages!

They are Greeks, who self-identify as such, not because of "oppresion" but because they chose to be so.
It is you who have to explain when exactly did you find that you are (simply) "macedonians".
Before or after you left the bulgarian camp?

13:09 Why don't you go and name yourselves Ottoman Greece out of pity towards your past leaders and current. You talk about there being more Macedonians in Greece, if there is the true ones not Greek ones as you refer why does your goverment and citizens persecute the Macedonians and try to cover up to the rest of the world. Have you forgot about your human rights records. Go fucken check history and current human rights information dude.
Of cause current Macedonians in Greece speak Greek and not Macedonian, you would fucken destroy them if they openly spoke their own mother tongue. You should try to step outside the square you are trapped in.Travel the rest of the world and open your eyes up.

Ottoman Greece? Excuse me sir, can you point me the boundaries or the Ottoman Empire?
How can you relate us with the Ottoman Empire and exclude yourself? You use so easy the word Ottoman in your posts but you like to forget that most of the Balkan continent was ruled by the Ottomans for quite a lot of time.

Our government persecutes “Macedonias”!!
Can you tell us what happened to the Greek communists that fled to your area after the end of our civil war? What happened to them? Do they speak their own language? Do they consider themselves as Greeks? Does your government (current and the past) allowed them to be Greeks?

You imagine the world in the way you like to! My friend, the world is something more complicated than “we are the good guys and the others, all the others, are the bad guys”.

9.04 VERY FUNNY WHAT WORLD ARE YOU REFERRING TO, ONE THAT IS ALWAYS DEROGARTORY TO OTHER NATIONS BY BULLYING TACTICS TO SUBMIT TO WHAT THE BIGGER NATION WANTS. NEVER FAIR COMPROMISES. LUCKY GOD IS MORE FORGIVING. HOW DO YOU IMAGINE THE WORLD??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

My dear 10:36, you do not answer to the questions I issued.

You ask me to travel the world and to open my eyes but you don’t like that world because of “never fair compromises”. And tell me why should we compromise? Because you like to call yourselves Macedonians? Because you want to monopolize that name?

Or maybe you expected us to compromise with the big Americans and give you all rights to Macedonian territory and history?

Why made a lot of compromises the last decades, just because we thought that we have big powerful friends (USA) but of course they don’t give a shit about us (soon you will discover how many shit they give about you).

Too little too late.

You greeks have changed:

the name of the country.
the name of people
places and even toumb stones.
the people

You have fought for nothing to do for Macedonia, EVER!

All you had was territorial aspirations and yes you achieved that.

What happened in say 1919 when Kingdom of Serbia was created, even when Maceodina's name was abolished for a one state concept by the dictator Alexander I in 1929. Where was Greece (you know the true Macedonians) to seize on the
chance and snap up the name while it was available? WHERE!

Greece has done nothing and deserves nothing.

Too little Too Late!

We are the true macedonians, not greeks or bulgarians.

SO GET USED TO IT BECAUSE WE AIN'T GOING ANYWHERE.

Excuse me? Your argument is that after 1913, you got first the name of Macedonia, so we don’t have rights? Is this your argument?

To me, it seems you are running out of arguments! Back in 1919, there was NO COUNTY WITH THE NAME MACEDONIA! In fact, after the Kingdom of Alexander, there was never a country with that name. So what we supposed to do with the name when the land of Macedonia was divided to 3 countries?

Your argument sounds like “we say first that we are Macedonians, we deserve to be called this way”. Well my friend, you were not the first but you will be the last!

You are as true Macedonian as we are. Maybe a bit less because our language is closer to the ancient Greek language, the one that Alexander the great was using.

In 1913, Greece was the first state to establish an official Macedonian province, under that name, since the Byzantine empire. And no Greek want the inhabitants of FY/ROM to leave. We have so much in common.
In 2001 Greece assisted in your survival as a nation. Greek investments are making sure that your working people do not leave abroad, but that they remain in the land of their birth.

Dear Alfavitas! First of all I agree with “any religion anywhere - should keep well out of party politics”, but the biggest problem here is that the GREEK church is a PART of the Greek political system! The Archbishop Stefan was talking about the cultural and linguistic meaning that Thessalonica have, or use to have, since all possible traces from him are “vanished”, even the letters on the graves of the dead people! Second, if the Greek politicians are calling us IRREDENTISTS because the refugees who were sent away from Greece want their stolen properties back, than SAME should apply for the Greek Cypriots. I don’t see Greece calling Cyprus IRREDENTIST COUNTRY, but helping them and supporting them in their issue! Thus, I appeal to Greece and all the brainwashed greeks, to stop twisting the truth and act as if they are the victims here. You have a lot of sins! GOD will pay you for everything! ANATHEMA SAS!!!!

No Michelos, it is not my argument that we got the name first.

There was no Macedonia at that time because Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians decided at the time to change the name of the territory to their own.

We have just re-instated the name Macedonia as it was prior to 1913.

We don't call our country Serbia and name west, east and central Macedonia as peripheries (one of about 13) within the country, then tell the world we are Macedonian. I mean how fucken confusing is that. Talk about a cut and paste job.

Your argument based on language and what Alexander spoke is paper thin. Macedonia was Romanized and later Turkasized. I don’t see them claiming Macedonia to be theirs.

Ancient Macedonians have existed as non Greeks through antiquity, separate to Greeks. They still inhabit Aegean Macedonia and Bulgaria. They are the true Macedonians. All the rest are just new settles.

Excuse me but before 1913 there was not any country called Macedonia. Maybe there were some people wanting to make a new country but there was not any. The first Macedonia, as a complete country is the one you name now (I exclude ancient Macedonia).

I don’t understand your argument about the 13 peripheries. What do you mean? Of course, we also divide our country to smaller prefectures but when we want to point to a large area we don’t say the names of all prefectures one by one! Come on, we just say North part of Greece! What’s wrong with it? That North part consists of Macedonia and Thrace!

My argument about Alexander’s language is the beginning of everything! Also their culture and customs! How can you say that an ancient nation, sharing language, gods, and customs with the rest of the Greeks are not Greeks? Where do you base that? How do you separate them? Why don’t you separate Athenians, Corinthians and Spartans?

Balkans was Romanized and Turkasized as you said. You don’t see them claiming Macedonia? How can they claim it? Do they live in Macedonia territories?

Just for your information, I have recently heard that Turkish believes that they are the source of civilization. That Aegean islands are occupied islands and everything that modern people considers as Greek civilization, the Turks consider it as pre Turkish civilization! What do you think of that?

You compare Cyprus problem with the refugees who were sent away? It seems that you are not aware that UN voted against the Turkish invasion. So, the situation in Cyprus is practically, illegal.

Also, you have to know that the Greek government restored the properties of the refugees that went to communist countries but the difference between their case and your case is that they consider themselves as Greeks!

And I still expect an answer to the question. What happened to the Greek refugees (after the civil war)? Where are they?

michkanos are you blind deaf stuped or just a arrogant nazi pig greek refugees!!!!!!!!!they were macedonian that to this day arn't allowed to come back back becouse they have macedonian surname.And i'm one of them so you can never call me greek i'm macedonian .i don't know where you get your info but you must be one stuped cunt.my grandfarthers name was change by you socalled democratic government but when he ran away he chaged it back
yopu are a dick

Well said 12.01

Michelos you just got baited
hook line and sinker
you fool



Mr Anonymous

michelos i'll like to meet you so i can see what kind of person you are .the way it looks someone has got there fingers up you ass and telling want to write ooops copy and paste

Unfortunately for you, there are Greeks that fled to Yugoslavia, after the end of civil war. Communist Greeks that were afraid because they lost in the civil war. They fled to Yugoslavia and to all other communist friendly nations.

Now, what you deny?

* You deny that there were Greek communist?
Well I must inform you that many – many Greek communists existed from 1945 until today! It’s ridiculous to believe that only “Macedonian” were communists!

* You deny that Communists from Greece fled to your area?
It is recorded that Communists from Greece fled to USSR, Bulgaria, Poland and other Communist state. This is recorded and I have experienced it because I have friends that their families came back, from USSR to Greece at late 70s. Can you give me a good reason, for the Greeks communists, to go to Bulgaria or to Soviet Union but not Yugoslavia?
And I ask again : WHERE ARE THEY?

You people must reconsider what they teach you at school. I don’t expect you to believe our side of story but just use your mind!

Greek communists existed. Greek communists fled to other communist countries. Where are yours?

Of course, among the refuges there was plenty of Slav speaking people. But not all of them were Slav. It’s impossible.

If you want to meet me then come to Thessaloniki. We may go to Vergina and to Museums to see why Alexander the great was Greek!

PS : If you examine my posts you will never see me using attitude the way you are. But I assume this is a way to express yourselves, specially when you run out of arguments…

Michelos, your posts seem to have gaping holes in your reasoning.

You have a huge problem saying Macedonia/n. You refer them as slavs?????????????????????????

What! There was no Macedonia prior to 1913????? Did I read correctly. Are you fucken insane?

The Ottoman empire were only interested in collecting taxes and the religious faith. They didn't care about the country's name and ethnicity.

It's brainwashed greeks like you that have this amnesia about macedonian oppression, forced assimilation and ethnic cleansing in the past 100 years.

Talking to you would be like beating your head against a wall.

Two greek diplomats just left a meeting in USA because Macedonia was referred as it should be. They sound to be on your wave length, sorry to say.

That is really pathetic. You just have to laugh. I am looking forward to the next greek episode in the press. I need a good laugh.

It seems that you understand what you like to understand!

I was talking about Macedonian country! Country!!! You know.. That thing with... government.. able to decide for / to their people. Sorry for my poor English because I was not able to make you understand!
So, tell me, was any Macedonian country existed before 1913 and after the collapse of the Macedonian empire? I hope I made it clear to you know…

Also.. in my last post I said about people speaking Slav. (READIT AGAIN IF YOU LIKE)

Now what! You are trying to convince me that your language is not a Slavic language? Come on! Tell me!

The two Greek diplomats did the right thing. But I must admit, too little, too late. The reason they left is that the meeting organizers promised them (the day before the meeting) that your country will not appear as Macedonia.

I also have to remind you that according to United Nations, your country’s name is FYROM. Meaning that this is your only official name until now!

I also like to watch your press. You are right. It’s very funny indeed. Too bad that your elections will end soon and the party will stop!

But who knows.. Negotiations for EU will come soon. Maybe the party will restart sooner than we thing…

(By the way, will you tell me what happened to the Greek (not the Slav speaking, just the Greek) who fled to your country after the end of civil war?

OK so, Macedonia was a province of the Ottoman empire. Therefore according to you there is no government then there is no Macedonia or macedonians b4 1913. Are you on drugs???

So Kosovo has no Kosova's b4 Feb 17 2008. The name Kosovo or Kosova's had no meaning, existence prior to that date? So if I look up those two terms on the internet I will find nothing on them before that date.

So greece has no history prior to 1820? You might as well start burning all those books about so called greek history. Ie. during the ottoman rule, roman and macedonian rule.

You have a hard time referring to the "slav speaking" people as Macodonians, Don't you?

But then again what do I expect I am talking to a greek!!

The UN named us FYROM which is an insult to Macedonians just to stop Greece from crying and to allow the UN to give aid to a country in need in 91/92.

The first UN envoy in 1991 who was assigned to tell Macedonia, Greece didn't like thier name wrote an interesting article about his experiences.

I can tell you something for free, he was less than impressed with Greece and the games she played at the time.

You seem to be a resourceful person, you might be able to find it on the internet.

Unfortunately not much has changed. But for how long???

Finally, I don't know what happened to the greeks that fled to our country........ and between you and me I don't care.

I was talking about countries! In depended countries! Come on! Read the posts! Read after the post 20:06 and you will understand what I am talking about! Come on! The existence of a state is important measure on how you deal with the things.

You have a hard time referring to the "slav speaking" people as Macodonians, Don't you?
And you have awful time to accept that you are speaking a Slavic language! We disagree and the use of the word Macedonian, you know that.
But tell me, your language is a Slavic language or not? :-)

And finally.. you have every right not to care about them… but maybe we should start digging this issue? After all, you claim a “Macedonian” minority inside our borders. It will be interesting to hear your response about a Greek minority inside your borders…

PS: No matter how resourceful person I am, I would gladly accept your contribution to the issue. Please, can you give me that information about the 1st UN envoy?

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