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PRESERVING IDENTITY AND DIGNITY



National.

The position of the Republic of Macedonia in the negotiations over the name differences with Greece has been reaffirmed, and preserving of the identity and dignity of the nation is set as the highest priority.

This was announced after the meeting of the state leadership, which was held Cabinet of the President Branko Crvenkovski and attended also by the PM Nikola Gruevski, Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki and the Macedonian negotiator Nikola Dimitrov.

Matthew Nimetz, the mediator in the negotiations, is expected to arrive to Skopje ion Friday to present the new proposal which includes four versions of the name North Macedonia.

Diplomatic sources said Nimetz made it clear that the proposal contains no specific name, but only a concept for settling of the issue.

PM Gruevski remains on his position the Macedonian citizens will have to vote at a referendum on any proposal implying change of the constitutional name.


[Makfax]

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Where will South Macedonia be then?There isn't any other country in the world named Macedonia,So why the big deal.

This cannot be an argument. There is the example of South Africa. There is no country with the name North (or east, west) Africa but there is a country with the name South Africa.

Also the are countries named New Zealand, New Caledonia but no countries with the name Zealand or Caledonia.

There are also the Federal states of New Mexico and New England.
The Macedonian Prime Minister Costas Caramanlis and his government have made a hugely unpopular decision with their Greek electorate and with their diaspora (especially their Macedonian diaspora): to accept that the term Macedonia can be used by Skopje.
Has this modified the arguments of the north? Has anyone told the Greeks, "thank you neighbours, now we can both share the term 'Macedonia'"? I hope someone will say thank you.

Will you call us Macedonians? Will you call our language Macedonian?
There is the problem! What shall we say thank you for? For keeping us hostage for 17 uears? For putting us trough 18 monts embargo? Gor blocking our companies working on your theritory? For NOT recognising our minority in your country? For putting them in jail if anyone hear them speaking their language? For callung us Skopjanians or Fyromians or Bulgarians? For calling us fake nation? For calling our language Bulgarian? For breaking the intherim agreement?

"Modern Greeks are direct descendents of the Ancient Greeks"??????
(The greatest victims of Greek lies are the Greeks themselves)

How can a region in the Balkans where modern Greece is located today, which has been open to a multitude of invasions, conquests and settlements, remain homogeneous and untouched for two thousand seven hundred years?
Ironically, as the Greeks claim, how can modern Macedonia, a region neighbouring modern Greece be so heterogeneous that it has completely lost its original identity?
These are questions that every Greek should be asking!
Ever since Philip II of Macedonia conquered the ancient City States at the conclusion of the battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC, the region south of Olympus has been without borders and open to all kinds of invasions and barbarian settlements.
THE BIG GREEK LIE: "Modern Greeks are direct descendents of the ancient Greeks"
There were no "Ancient Greeks" since the word "Greek" was not coined until after the Roman conquests, approximately 600 years after the establishment of the City States and approximately 150 years after they were conquered by the Macedonians.
It is also well known that the ancient City States were never united politically and never established themselves as a single state. In fact they existed politically independent from one another and fought each other for economic dominance of the region.
The name "Greece" was imposed on the modern Greek Kingdom by the Great Powers Britain, France and Russia. Modern Greeks call themselves Hellenes (Ellines) and their state Hellas (Ellas).
By using the name "Greek" to refer to both the ancient and modern people, the Greek state falsely implies descent for the modern Greeks from the ancients.
By using the name "Greece" to refer to both the ancient and modern states, the Greek State is falsely implying;
(1) continuity between the ancient City States and modern Greece, and
(2) that there was some sort of political unity between the ancient City States themselves where one did not exist..
In reality the words "Greece" and "Greek" were popularized by modern 19th century writers. There are no ancient maps or references with the words "Greece".
The Romans may have made some references to the ancient people living in Sicily as "Grecos" but they referred to the region south of Olympus as Achaia.
During the Ottoman era the people living south of Olympus called themselves Romeos (Romans).
Greece is a newly created state which never existed before the 19th century. The Kingdom of Greece, occupying the region of Morea, present day Peloponnesus, was created for the first time in 1829. Between 1829 and 1912 the Greeks enlarged their territory to present day Greece, by conquering Epirus, Thessaly and 51% of Macedonia.
At its inception Greece stated out with a small population of less than one million people, most of whom were Albanians, Slavs and Vlahs with a small minority of other ethnicities. By the time Greece conquered Epirus and Thessaly, its population grew to three times its original size. In 1907 it registered a population of 2,600,000. After it conquered Macedonia and exchanged populations with Turkey, its population tripled. In 1928 Greece registered 6,200,000 people. 1,100,000 of them were Christians, refugees from Asia Minor.
After the Treaty of Lausanne in July 1923, and after the population exchanges with Turkey, Greece declared itself homogenous consisting of 100% pure Greeks with a very small Muslim but ethnically Greek population.
It is estimated that after Macedonia was conquered, occupied and had some of its population evicted, more than one million Macedonians still remained and were included among the Greeks.
According to Greece however, there were no non-Greeks left in Macedonia after its population exchanges. Also, according to Greece, the ancient Macedonians were extinct, killed off by the Slavs around the 6th century AD during the so-called Slav invasions.
So the question that begs to be asked here is, "What nationality were these million or so people who remained in Macedonia and became part of Greece?" Many Greeks would argue that they were Bulgarians!
If that were the case, then how can the modern Greeks claim purity and homogeneity if at least 16% of its population in 1928 was non-Greek? What about its Vlah, Slav, Albanian and Turkish elements? Clearly they are not Greeks, let alone being direct descendents of the ancient Greeks?
Even this small argument shows that there is something "fishy" about these Greek claims.
For over a century and a half Greek State institutions, organizations and individuals have been making unproven and unfounded allegations that the modern Greeks are direct descendents of the ancients. To this day they have shown no evidence to prove their claims. In fact the opposite is true. There is ample evidence that proves that this particular modern Greek claim is an outright BIG Greek lie.
This exact issue was tackled by Historian John Shea in chapter 4 of The Great Ethnic Mix of Greece, pages 77 to 96, in his book "Macedonia and Greece, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation". Among other things, John Shea proves that even the ancient people were not homogeneous.
"It has been estimated that in classical times the number of slaves in Attica was roughly equal to the number of free inhabitants, or around 100,000. In Sparta there was an even greater proportion of slaves, and most of them, the helots, were Messenians. While the slaves of Athens were a wide racial mix and therefore less likely to unite on the basis of a common language, these Messenian helots of Sparta all spoke Greek, and had a kind of group self-consciousness. Thus they presented 'special problems of security for their Spartan masters, whose numbers were constantly on the decline.' Changes in the ethnic composition of Greek city-states are illustrated by the comments about the case of Piso. Piso, who had been the recipient of an unhelpful decision by a vote of the Athenian city assembly, 'made a violent speech in which he said that the latter-day Athenians had no right to identify themselves with the great Athenians of the days of Pericles, Demosthenes, Aeschylus, and Plato. The ancient Athenians had been extirpated by repeated wars and massacres and these were mere mongrels, degenerates, and the descendants of slaves. He said that any Roman who flattered them as if they were the legitimate heirs of those ancient heroes was lowering the dignity of the Roman name.' Such historical ideas make it clear that even two thousand years ago the notion of ethnic purity amongst the Greeks was difficult to sustain. The ethnic mix continued over the next two thousand years. As Nicol has observed, 'The ancient Greeks were, after all, of very mixed ancestry; and there can be no doubt that the Byzantine Greeks, both before and after the Slav occupation, were even more heterogenous'." (Pages 83 and 84, John Shea, Macedonia and Greece, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation)
And there you have it!
THE TRUTH: The modern Greeks are not only NOT direct descendents of the ancients, but their Greekness is a myth, a modern 19th century creation.

"Greeks are Hellenes"????
(Modern Greeks believe they are Hellenes)

According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, Hellenism is "the culture, ideals, and pattern of life of ancient Greece in classical times. It usually means primarily the culture of ATHENS and the related cities in the Age of Pericles [495-429 BC]. The term is also applied to the ideals of later writers and thinkers who draw their inspiration from ancient Greece. Frequently it is contrasted with Hebraism - Hellenism then meaning pagan joy, freedom, and love of life as contrasted with the austere morality and monotheism of the Old Testament. The Hellenic period came to an end with the conquest of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC. It was succeeded by the Hellenistic civilization." Page 930, Columbia Encyclopedia, Third Edition 1963, New York and London.
If you ask a Modern Greek today to identify his or her "nationality" they will say they are "Greek". If you ask them what is that in "Greek"? They will say "Ellinas" or "Ellinida". There is no word for "Greek" in the Greek vocabulary. If there is (Graekos) it is rarely used and unknown to most Greeks.
According to most modern Greeks today, "Greek" and "Ellines" are synonymous. In other words a "Hellene is a native of either ancient or modern Greece; a Greek".
If I am to understand this correctly "a Hellene is a person who shares the culture, ideals, and pattern of life of ancient Greece in classical times" and "who is a native of either ancient or modern Greece". In other words, again if I understand this correctly, any person of any ethnicity who is native of either ancient or modern Greece and who shares the culture, ideals and pattern of life of ancient Greece in classical times qualifies to be a Hellene.
Can a person be a Hellene and something else at the same time? According to Modern Greek standards, NO! One cannot be a Hellene and a Turk at the same time; according to some Greeks, why would they want to? "A Hellene is a superior being!" Also, according to some Greeks, "to be a Hellene one must be a descendant of the ancient Hellenes".
Obviously there are people today who call themselves "Hellenes" or more accurately, "Ellines". My question here is "who are these people and how did they become the Hellenes?"
Modern Greeks today consider themselves to be the inheritors of the ancient Greek and Byzantine civilizations and cultures. Historically, the self-perception of the Greeks and the definition of Greekness have varied, but with the emergence and consolidation of the nation-state, from the late 18th century, Greekness was redefined along the lines of what some people call romantic nationalism.
Romantic nationalism is the form of nationalism in which the state derives its political legitimacy as an organic consequence of the unity of those it governs. This includes, depending on the particular manner of practice, the language, race, culture, religion and customs of the "nation" in its primal sense of those who were "born" within its culture. This form of nationalism arose in reaction to dynastic or imperial hegemony, which assessed the legitimacy of the state from the "top down", emanating from a monarch or other authority, which justified its existence. Such downward-radiating power might ultimately derive from God.
Greece accepts all those who agree with this principle and rejects those who disagree.
So what exactly is this principle and what are the criteria for belonging to it? Or, what is this club called "Hellas" and how does one sign up to join it?
Is it ethnicity? Obviously not! Modern Greece is made up of Slav Speakers, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Christian Turks, Roma, etc.
Is it the Christian Orthodox Religion? Obviously not, even though most conservative Greeks like it to be! The so-called ancient Hellenes were Pagan.
So what exactly is a "Hellene" then in modern terms?
A Modern Hellene is a person who has rejected his or her real ethnicity, forsaken his or her real culture for the sake of belonging to a "CLUB".
A Modern Hellene or Modern Greek, since Hellene and Greek are synonymous, has abandoned reality and the truth for the sake of living an Idea.
When Greece was coming together as a country for the first time in the early 1800's, ethnically it could not hold itself together because of the various ethnicities living together and pulling in different directions. It is well known and every Greek should know that the majority of their national heroes of the "Greek uprising" against the Turks were not Greeks. They were Albanians (Arvanites), Vlachs and Slav Speakers (mostly Macedonians).
Even though there were many roads Greece could have taken during its national awakening it chose the road to "Hellenism". Unfortunately, appealing as it might have been to the Greek State it was destructive and devastating to the indigenous people of the region who are reeling from it to this day.
Greece wiped out half a dozen natural cultures and vibrant languages for the sake of resurrecting something that had died two thousand five hundred years ago so that it could re-live the old glory days and satisfy the imperial ambitions of the Great Powers of the day.
THE TRUTH
The truth is "there are no Hellenes living today", and as per the Columbia Encyclopedia definition, they died, came to an end with the conquest of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC.
You Greeks can all pretend to be "Hellenes" but the only ones you're fooling are yourselves, which is fine by me. Unfortunately when you claim that the Macedonians, a real, vibrant living people don't exist, I take offense to that.
When you adamantly insist that Macedonia belongs to Greece, a group of people who fabricated their own identity, and not to the real Macedonians, I take offence to that.
When Macedonians are murdered, sent to prison, exiled from their homes and lands, forbidden to speak their mother tongue, not being recognized as people in their native lands, for the sake of propagating a Greek lie, I take offence to that.
When Macedonian names and toponyms are erased, Macedonian Bibles and tombstones eradicated, and peoples' identities stripped from them for the sake of creating "Hellenes" an identity that died many eons ago, I take offense to that too.
So please take a good look at your creation and tell me that "Hellenism" is not another BIG Greek lie!

So because of the past (as you see it), Greece will always be in the wrong?
People in Greee are allowed to speak Slavo-Macedonian or any other language they choose. And it is not 'your' minority, it is Greece's minority and Greece has to accept it. Their language is not the same as that of your country (just like your language is not the same as Bulgarian).
Greece is the largest investor in your country and thousands of Makedonce come to Greece for tourism and business every week.
But if 'you' keep insulting the Greeks and publishing those irredentist maps, they will keep seeing you as a threat (and vice versa). The fact is that Greece has listened to you with respect and accepts that the name 'Macedonia' will be in your official name. That is a HUGE start. But if people still keep saying 'stuff you', rather than encouraging and listening in return to Greek concerns, then...

So are you saying that THERE IS MINORITIES IN GREECE? Are you saying THERE IS PEOPLE WHOS MOTHER TONGUE IS DIFFERENT THAN GREEK? If there is, than there IS PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ETHNIC GREEKS LIVING IN GREECE? That means: GREECE IS NOT "CLEAN", or "PURE" or "UNIETHNICAL" COUNTRY!!!!!! Thank you for saying the truth!!!!

And so the story goes…

There is no word for "Greek" in the Greek vocabulary. If there is…
Now, you have to decide (for us?) : There is or there is not the word Greek in our vocabulary? :-) Obviously, there is! Many Greeks are not aware of the origin of this word but if you make a internet search on the word «Γραικός» you will understand it’s meaning. For your information, Grekos is older than Hellinas. The myth says that “ΓΡΑΙΚΟΣ” was the son of Zeus and Pandoras, brother of Macedon and Magnis. Aristotelis and others mention that before the use of the word Hellines, we were using the word Greki, So, the word Greek existed long before the Hellines and so that BIG LIE that anonymous is mentioning is just a big propaganda of his. When you want to refer to Greek history, you should study it more!
Is that enough with the word Greek or you want me to explain it further? :-)

about the purity of Greeks…
hey Anonymous 19:23, do you want me also to say that we are not pure and clean? Well I say it! We are not! Who can claim that his nation genes are 100% clean?
Hm… except you of course who have all the right to claim that your race is superior!
Of course there are people that their mother language is not the common Greek. But it’s not Bulgarian or “Macedonian” either! The fact that people’s language change from place to place doesn’t immediately made them “Macedonian” minority.
May I ask about our minority in your lands?

Oh absolutely you can ask, and I will tell you. It is a public document and you can find it on internet as well. There is about 400 Greeks living in Republic of Macedonia. No one is making them problem to say who they are. In the document for listing people in R. Macedonia there is a special row in wich the people say are they Macedonians, Albanians, Serbs.....And EVERYONE is FREE to say who they are. This is the HUGE DIFFERENCE between R. Macedonia and Greece. In Greece there isn't any row or place where the people can say they are NOT Greeks but something else! That is NOT A DEMOCRACY and exactly that is the problem.That is why in Greece there isn't ANY minorities. Because the government already decided FOR THEM, and decided- they are ALL GREEKS. What is the reason for this? Maybe Greece (the politicians) are afraid of the real number of minorities in Greece? Maybe they are afraid that someon elce (but the Greeks) can have BASIC HUMAN rights? Maybe this is the Greek version of demokracy? Maube if they recognise the minorities, the "homogenity" of the country and the "purity" of the Greek genes will be questioned? Maube the "theory" about everuone elces mixed genes, and the "clean" Greek genes will not be "working" any more? Maybe they will lose ALL of their credibility in the country,in EU and the Balkans as a "LEADING DEMOCRACY" in the region? Maybe EU will see that they are asking the candidate countries to respect the human rights, but THEIR EU MEMBER country is not, and is damaging the credibility and basic rules of the whole institution? A lot of maybe.... You chose wich one is it.
I can see that you are confused about your minorities. Here a suggestion. Why dont you go and ask them personally what are they and wich language they are speaking? I already know the answer. And after let me know if im wrong, OK? And im sorry but we NEVER said that WE are "the superior" race. We know wery well that is impossible to have 100% pure genes in any part of the world, especially on the Balcans with so many wars in the past and so many different nations! You are the "homogenious democracy" remember?
Also i can see you are geting wrey wrey stresed out whenever we suggest or say anything "different then your believes". Do you see now how is it someone who HAVE NO RIGHT, to tell us for 17 years what to do, who to be, what language to speek.... We say: If someone hit you 100 times, it would NOT hurt ME. You got the point? That is why I suggest you all to think a litle bit about OUR NATIONAL FEELINGS as well. You are not the only one in the world. Wanted or not, you HAVE to live next to us and with us. That is why this "sharade" is meaningles. You should say to your precious Dora and Kostas, or maybe to their fathers who were the masterminds of this “issue” that we could all live in peace, and build our good neighbouring connections and future with together. We hade the same name before our independence, and that seamed not to bother you. You were not calling us Skopjanians, your embassy in Skopje was called EMBASSY OF GREECE IN SOCIALISTIC REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA….. We and you could be much richer as a country and as people, because we all know how strategic positions we both have on the Balkans. Instead you (your politicians) chose to create a “problem”, chose to spend BILLIONS on propaganda and sponsorship of foreign politicians for support, chose to be our godfathers an to tell us how we can be called, and with all that bringing both countries in so much depths, poverty, EU loans, and the worst, they managed to turn 13 million people (2 mill. In Macedonia and 11 mill. In Greece) in to a enemies living 17 years of their lives full with fear (that we will take your territories), anger, hate and racism for each other. BRAVO GREECE. Maybe some day you (people)will see that we are all (including you) just puppets in the hands of your manipulative political families-Mitsotakis, Karamanlis and Papandreou!
We say: WITH THIS KIND OF FRIENDS, I RATHER HAVE ENEMIES!

OF COURSE!! There is a minority of native Greek citizens whose native language is Slavomacedonian, or Turkish, or Pomak, or Rom (often they learn both languages at home). That is not a secret; it is fact. It is also fact that the vast majority of Greeks are ethnic Greeks :-)

What Greeks FEAR is, why their ethnic Makedonce friends in the north print irridentist maps of 'Macedonian that for their schools that include territory from 5!!! areas: from Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Mount Athos! The irredentist 'Macedonia' was NEVER included or presented at any international treaties. It simply keeps telling the world: we want to conquer and ethnically cleanse our neighbours.
NO OTHER EUROPEAN country prints such maps. If you google 'Macedonia', it is the only country that come up with an irredentist map on the very first page!

HAHAHAHAHA! Bre Alfavitas. First of all thell me how many people from USA, Australia, UK, South Africa...speak their native language-English, but feel like Greeks, simply because their fathers, mothers, grandparents... are Greek? Millions! How many of them are stydiing their mother language- Greek at home? ALL where there is NO Greek classes at school. So what dont you understand? You answer to your question your self. There IS people who WERE BORN IN GREECE, ARE LIVING IN GREECE, studing their mother language AT HOME (widely known fact)because there is NO classes for their language in the public schools, HAVING GREEK PASSPORT... BUT calling them selves MACEDONIAN MINORITY, or TURKISH MINORITY, or ALBANIAN MINORITY, or .... So why is not a problem for your people around the world to call them selves Greeks, as they feel, byt is a HUGE PROBLEM if someone in YOUR COUNTRY say that is something else? If I have UK passport, that does not make me British! And i agree 100% that: "It is also fact that the vast majority of Greeks are ethnic Greeks :-)" NOONE IS DENYING THAT!!!!! But VAST MAJORITY does NOT mean ALL!!!! IT means: YES THERE ARE MINORITIES IN GREECE, but WE DONT KNOW HOW MUCH, simply because OUR COUNTRY-GREECE IS NOT RECOGNISING THEM, is not giving them ANY rights, to speak their language, to study their language or TO CALL THEM SELVES AS THEY WANT!!!!!!

Second, those maps ARE NOT IRRIDENTIST MAPS! Those maps ARE HISTORY MAPS!!!!!!!! Hello!!! Are we not aloud to teach our children about their history? Why dont you say that the maps of former Yugoslavia, that the children see in the history books are irridentistic maps? Or that because of that maps WE ARE PLANNING TO CONCORDE ALL OF THE EX YUGOSLAVIA COUNTRIES???? I know that in your history books there is a maps about Istambul (Konstantinopoli) being Greek city. Does that mean that YOU have theritorial clames over Turkey? Or it means that that's how it WAS IN THE HISTORY? Stpop writing nonsence. Be real.
Personally I feel pitty for all the Greeks living in fear, because they just BLINDLY TRUST THEIR POLITICIANS! Open jour eyes. No wander your politicians are managing to play you as they want. They spend BILLIONS of euros on propaganda against Republic of Macedonia, and in the meantime raise your every day expences, your taxes,your labour years and so on, making you more and more pour every day. We hade politicians who tried to keep us in fear (that the albanians will take our country, that NATO will atack us....), so you can find them now in the oposition, hitting their head in tre wall. Take this as a REALLY HONEST FRIENDLY ADVICE: As long you let them keep you living in fear, as long they have all the power to manipulate you! People means POWER, DEMOCRACY means THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE, NOT of THE POLITICIANS! Wake up.They dont just keep US hostage, but YOU as well. I bet is VERY INTERESTING for THEM to hold 11 MILLION people in their hands. Lets be honest here. Can you tell any good thing that any of your politicians do for their people? Vetoing us in Bucharest :)? You see, they are satisfying you with a "big win" in a fabricated problem, just so they can keep you peasfull. They are playing games about WHO is the bigger patriot, and all you people get for that is RAISED COST OF LIVING :)
They are all same everywere. I can tell you, POLITICS IS POLITICS. The people are different. Why dont you go to Montenegro, or Croatia this summer, and you will see peolpe from ALL OVER YUGOSLAVIA SITTING and SINGING together and HUGGING EACHOTHER! You would not be able to bilieve it. The wars were politics. Europe and USA had to break Yugoslavia and SSSR apart. We were strong for them. Now they made 20 pour countries (from ex YU and SSSR) and they are thelig us WHO is in charge :).
Daube in different case scenario you and me could be siting together in some cofee bar and be BEST friends. I know how much WE have to offer, and i also know the Greeks do too. BUT, instead YOU chosed your politicians "game", and are queitly letting them take jour life awau from you.Sorry :(

* You are too generous with Greek politicians; they are not brainwashing anyone, they are just stupid (and greedy) and are incapable of analysing the Macedonian question.

* People should be able in Greece to identify as Slavomacedonians, it is their right and this historic presence makes Greece a richer place. Of course, we cannot have in Greece an ethnic Peloponnesian, ethnic Macedonian, ethnic Thracian, ethnic Cretan minority, it is absurd.
But why do you think that map historic? It was arbitrarily established in 1897(I think), it was hardly ever used and it sudenly took off in the late 1940s as an irredentist map (at least then).
* We could say that the map of the Vilayet of Kosovo is a historic map of the Albanian people; therefore Kosovo's borders should include western and northern Republika Makedonija. Imagine if every school had such a map.

I agree about the politicians. But there are only few problems about the other things.
1. Map of big Kosovo IS and WILL BE IRIDENTHISTIC from the simple reason that THERE WAS NEVER ANY COUNTRY (or geografic region) CALLED KOSOVO (or Albania) BIGGER THAN IN THE PRESENT TIME.And if you want a prove that THE FAMOUS Macedonian Map is 100% LEGAL, go to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Balkan_Wars_Boundaries.jpg

if you want to see that Macedonia was never Greek before 1913 go to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bucharest_(1913)

or maybe you want to see what was THE KING OF GREECE saying about THE OCUPATION fo Macedonia and GAINED theritories go to

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/PartitionedMacedonia/KingoftheGreeks.html


and maybe you will realise that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE Greece to be "pure gene" country, since together with the teritories they inhereted more than 1.7 MILLION people!!!!!!! (most of them after the 100 year of denying and destroing every possible evidence about their history, cultyre and language, maybe are not even aware WHO they are but think that they are Greek). For that purpose just reed the real life story of this girl

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/katerina/katerina1.html

And if you are not clear by now, our people dont want to be called "Slavomacedonians". Same as you dont like someone calling you "kalamaras!" Etsi? I think that we already proved that WE are not slavs, but MIXED (some from the antic, some slav, some maybe from the millions of foreighn armys passing the Balkan theritories). And we also proved that you are not 100 % pure "Greeks", or that your country is 100% homogenious.
That is why THIS "problem" (read FABRICATION) is 100% STUPID!!!!!

I live in London and I have a lot of Greek-Cypriot friends. About the Macedonian "name" issue, they are telling me : Leave Greece, they just LOVE TO PATRONISE TO EVERYONE, incliding US the Cypriots! And through the solving of someone elses name and language and identity, they hope to solve their own problems (there is no country called Macedonia- there is no Macedonians and finaly there is no Macedonian minority in Greece).

23:17 But off site you are biased and only one sided. Do you have Macedonian friends as well.


HOW MANY SIDES DOES A COIN HAVE AND ARE BOTH SIDES IDENTICAL????????????????????????????????????????

1. Yes, Macedonia was not belonging to the Greek state before 1913. So what does this prove? Can you tell me to who belonged before 1913? To Turkey? So what that supposed to mean? That you (and some of us) are Turks or that this land belongs to Turkey?

2. The king of Greece mentioned occupation? So? An occupation from the Turks, right? Because they owned the land at that time.

3. Yes, more than one and a half million people became part of our country. So? If we agree that everybody who lived in the land of Macedonia for 2-3 generations has the right to be called Macedonian then all this 1.5milion consists of Greeks, Turks, Jews and Bulgarians.

But how was the Balkans at that time? According to French consul in 1831 (long before we “reach” Macedonian) Macedonia consists of Greeks and Bulgarians (read more here : French consul in 1831: Macedonia consists of Greeks and Bulgarians)

Also there were historians in 1915 that describe the Balkan races without mentioning any Macedonians. (read more here Four of the best Historians, describe Balkans in 1915)

So, what we have here…
In the Balkans, at the time of 1831 (until 1915) there were Bulgarians (among the others) that living in Macedonia. Of course these Bulgarians were mixed with the other nations but they kept their language and customs.
Can somebody show me a way how to separate these Bulgarians (People that were living in Macedonian and speaking a Slavic language similar to yours) and your kind of Macedonians?

Wikippedia is not a valid source because anyone can write anything in it.

1. You just admited that Macedonia was NEVER part og Greece before 1913, and with that you automatically admited that Macedonia was NEVER Greek. THANK YOU!!!! FINALLY!!!!
2. I'm not surprised that you dont know what was happening with Macedonia prior to 1913. It is not your country :). But is MY country. If you want to know, you can read the timeline on

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/timeline.html

3. I can see you don't deny that THERE IS OTHER THAN GREEK PEOPLE LIVING IN GREECE. This means that your country is not treating its cityzens equally. The Greeks are the only who maters.That was all i wanted to know. So let me inform you that there is one international document, called The Universal Declaration of Human Rights! As far as I can thell, you never even hird about it before. Go ahead and read it!!

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html


Now, if you read it, I would like to ask you: HOW WILL YOU FEEL IF YOUR BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS ARE DENIED, IF YOU ARE NOT ALOUD TO SAY WHO YOU ARE, HOW DO YOU FEEL, WHAT KIND OF LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK.....?I bet it wouldn't be a pleasant feeling.

4.As for the French, im not impresed. THEY WERE ALLWAYS "ON YOUR SIDE". Here some other statistics

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/OttomanMacedonia/statistics.html

and some other explanations about this " issue"

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov5.html

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov6.html

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov7.html

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov8.html

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov9.html


http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov10.html

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov11.html


http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov12.html

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov13.html

1. I just admitted? You just forgot your English. So, with your point of view, Macedonia did not exist for more than 2 thousands of years. So, what are you? A ghost? Ah, yes. For you, and only you, the occupied scenario works. The others don’t have right to this scenario! Nice!

2. I already mentioned facts prior to 1913. And since I LIVE in this area, I am also interest. I presented numerous of documents to support that.

3. The existence of non-Greeks proves that the country does not treating them equally? Nice! Your logic makes so much sense! For the moment, the people that have major problems with a government are the Albanians with your government. So, now tell me, how you feel having second and third class citizens?
So, can you tell me which human rights we deny? And please speak for the present. Not for the times of a civil war.

4. I am wondering what you want to prove with these statistics. It’s obvious that everybody used an amount of 1,100,000 people for it’s own purpose. So what? We never declined the existence of Slavs before (and after) 1913. It’ very funny that you prefer a statistic research that categorized you as Slav but you reject the Slav attribute!
And what about Bulgarians and Servs. Never existed? How convenient for you! So, among all, you selected the one that fits you better and you present it as evidence (of what?).

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February 27 2010:
Auxentius

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